Unchartered Waters: Where Lewis and Clark Need to Explore
By epluribusgergely on May 19, 2007
Don't know about you, but I need a good rock read. It's been a long time since I've picked up anything I could really sink my teeth into. The last tome that really flipped my wig was Revolution in the Head, which came out about 10 years ago. I think we can help out here. I consider it our duty to let the pop intelligensia know what issues are worthy of exhaustive research. My hope is that one of those nuts will find this desperate group on google and dig away at one our proposed projects.
Mine are as follows:
1) King Records, or a biography of Syd Nathan. I don't get it. There's a Sun book, a Chess book, hell, there's even a Trumpet, and Duke/Peacock book. Still, nothing on King! The guy that ran the show, the aforementioned Nathan was a legendary prick, but still had the smarts to sign up James Brown, Billy Ward and the Dominoes, Hank Ballard, Charlie Feathers (WAY overrated in my book, but nonetheless considered one of those biggies by the Nu-Nile crowd), Wynonnie Harris. . . .We're talking about artists that influenced just about anyone who ever tried to form a band. Peter Guralnick, where are you? In college, I actually dropped out of a class to have more time to read Albert Goldman's Elvis book (yeah, I know that's frightening, but it was good and gossipy). Know that I would collect unemployment checks for 6 months to eat up whatever you found worthy enough to flop on the plate.
2) Brian Jones - His actual contributions to Stones recordings. Mark Lewisohn (or whatever the fuck his name is, the guy that wrote the Beatles Recording Sessions). I want you to revisit all those tapes with Mick, Keith, Charlie, and Bill to find out what contributions Brian actually made to each song. I have a feeling the results will be very surprising to those Jones die hards who swear is input is what made the Stones the greatest rock and roll band ever.
3) Curtis Mayfield - An exhaustive biography nothing short of the Stax accounting that came out about 6 years ago. I want it all. Every nook and cranny of info about his stuff as well as all his contributions to those incredible Vee Jay, Okeh, Windy C, and Mayfield singles. And here's something neat -I've got an old fart buddy named Dennis Brennan, who used to be in a Magnificent Men kinda thing called the Intentions who recorded for Philips, a Mercury subsidiary, in the '60s. He told me that he actually went to a mid-60s recording session where Mayfield was actually the drummer! If it so turns out that Mayfield is indeed the drummer on those Okeh records, the finding will be nothing short of the discovery of the dead sea scrolls. Stax guy, again whatever your name is, this one's for you!
Well, that's a start! I'd try to help out with the research myself, but there are too many roadblocks ahead: work, the raising of insufferable fearless brats, and daily visits with my rehab counselor.
Post those ideas!
E. Pluribus
43 comments
Comment from: sally_cinnamon [Member] 
Well, it's not an idea, but the guy that I was talking to last night just finished reading White Bicycles about Joe Boyd and said it was good AND gossipy - phenomenal, even.
White Bicycles: Making Music in the 1960s by Joe Boyd
http://www.amazon.co.uk/White-Bicycles-Making-Music-1960s/dp/1852429100
I would look forward to a book on Roky Erickson... I read a really good essay/interview about him in De Capo's 2002 version of Best Music Writing and I'd like to read more.
All of your ideas thus far stated do sound like great reads to me though, E. Pluribus! I would absolutely pick them up. You should capitalize on that market!
White Bicycles: Making Music in the 1960s by Joe Boyd
http://www.amazon.co.uk/White-Bicycles-Making-Music-1960s/dp/1852429100
I would look forward to a book on Roky Erickson... I read a really good essay/interview about him in De Capo's 2002 version of Best Music Writing and I'd like to read more.
All of your ideas thus far stated do sound like great reads to me though, E. Pluribus! I would absolutely pick them up. You should capitalize on that market!
2007-05-18 @ 14:13
Comment from: Oats [Member]
I was at Joe Boyd's reading at Robin's Books (as was Matt and Anne) and it was really fascinating stuff. Haven't gotten 'round to reading the whole book myself but it's on my list!
2007-05-18 @ 14:23
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
That's the last book I wanted to read, but I couldn't find it any of the local book stores. Looks like I'm gonna have to get it through Amazon.
Kudos to the both of ya for reminding me about that book!
Sincerely,
E. Pluribus
Kudos to the both of ya for reminding me about that book!
Sincerely,
E. Pluribus
2007-05-18 @ 14:43
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
Hey Sally Gal,
I don't know you. I wanna find out what you're all about. Give me your top ten favorite movies when you get a minute or two.
Hope to hear from you soon,
E. Pluribus
I don't know you. I wanna find out what you're all about. Give me your top ten favorite movies when you get a minute or two.
Hope to hear from you soon,
E. Pluribus
2007-05-18 @ 14:47
Comment from: Al [Member]
[I've got an old fart buddy named Dennis Brennan, who used to be in a Magnificent Men kinda thing called the Intentions who recorded for Philips, a Mercury subsidiary, in the '60s. ]
Now, wait a minute, E. My cousin was in a street corner doo-wop/soul group in the '60s called The Intentions. 4 white kids from Delaware County (Yeadon mostly) who recorded one single "I'm In Love With A Go-Go Girl". I just gave my cousin a call and Dennis Brennan means nothing to him but still a funny coincidence nonetheless.
If you ever come across that item in your stacks of 45s, you've got a sale!
Now, wait a minute, E. My cousin was in a street corner doo-wop/soul group in the '60s called The Intentions. 4 white kids from Delaware County (Yeadon mostly) who recorded one single "I'm In Love With A Go-Go Girl". I just gave my cousin a call and Dennis Brennan means nothing to him but still a funny coincidence nonetheless.
If you ever come across that item in your stacks of 45s, you've got a sale!
2007-05-18 @ 17:57
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
We need a quality, non ass-lick bio of Stevie Wonder!
2007-05-18 @ 18:23
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
Hey Al,
The Dennis Brennan I'm referring to is from Harrisburg. His group, the Intentions, had one single released on Phillips entitled, "Don't Forget That I Love You." It's a solid piece of work, something you'd appreciate.
I'll keep my eye out for the other Intentions single.
Know that a tape will be coming your way shortly!
Talk to ya soon!
E. Pluribus
The Dennis Brennan I'm referring to is from Harrisburg. His group, the Intentions, had one single released on Phillips entitled, "Don't Forget That I Love You." It's a solid piece of work, something you'd appreciate.
I'll keep my eye out for the other Intentions single.
Know that a tape will be coming your way shortly!
Talk to ya soon!
E. Pluribus
2007-05-18 @ 18:54
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
Hrundi,
Nice call on the Wonder bio. Nothing is worse than those authorizied bios. I haven't read one that was worth a shit.
I'm outa here. Gotta go pick up a DVD for me and the ball and chain. We're gonna watch "The Mayor of Sunset Strip" tonight.
Later!
E. Pluribus
Nice call on the Wonder bio. Nothing is worse than those authorizied bios. I haven't read one that was worth a shit.
I'm outa here. Gotta go pick up a DVD for me and the ball and chain. We're gonna watch "The Mayor of Sunset Strip" tonight.
Later!
E. Pluribus
2007-05-18 @ 18:58
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
Al and Hrundi,
One more thing before I head out. Please check out the following You Tube link. Maybe it's just me, but the techniques employed by the dancers don't seem to jibe with the stuff cranking out of the club speakers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbEuq54FcBg
One more thing before I head out. Please check out the following You Tube link. Maybe it's just me, but the techniques employed by the dancers don't seem to jibe with the stuff cranking out of the club speakers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbEuq54FcBg
2007-05-18 @ 19:04
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Although it would only sell 1873 copies, I’d like to read an in-depth account of the making of XTC’s English Settlement. To me, it’s as cohesive, seamless, and innovative album as any that’s never had a major write-up. Partridge has talked at great length about the writing of some of the songs, which is cool, but the sound of the album, the way the songs are arranged, and the way it holds together is what I want to hear discussed – without any of their typical grumbling about bad management, Partridge’s comic book/toy train/porn collection and anal warts, and Partridge’s somewhat well-documented and always boring phobia of playing live!
For the benefit of future aspiring musicians, I’d like to read a book that chronicles the lives of musicians during their downtime, focusing on the economics of how they live after not doing much of anything for 5 years or longer. It would have to be tiered by levels of success: how Joe Strummer lived after doing almost nothing of substance for 20 years yet having back catalog sales of Clash albums to tide him over was surely a lot different than how Tom Verlaine has lived, after writing an album side’s worth of tremendous rock ‘n roll and then releasing introverted, poorly distributed, low-selling albums thereafter. What will all those robed musicians in Polyphonic Spree be doing once that gravy train runs its course? I’m sure some guys at this level have to get a fucking job of some sort, right? Let’s hear about it, not so that we can laugh at them but so we can better put into perspective their own commitment to their art and whatever our own meager creative efforts might be. The myth of the glamorous rock star living off his or her royalties can’t be that prevalent, can it?
Good call on the need for that Wonder bio. If I could ever remember the outrageous thing I said about him years ago, I may be the man to scape away the bullshit. Perhaps the most-talented "needle-lifter" artist in history?
For the benefit of future aspiring musicians, I’d like to read a book that chronicles the lives of musicians during their downtime, focusing on the economics of how they live after not doing much of anything for 5 years or longer. It would have to be tiered by levels of success: how Joe Strummer lived after doing almost nothing of substance for 20 years yet having back catalog sales of Clash albums to tide him over was surely a lot different than how Tom Verlaine has lived, after writing an album side’s worth of tremendous rock ‘n roll and then releasing introverted, poorly distributed, low-selling albums thereafter. What will all those robed musicians in Polyphonic Spree be doing once that gravy train runs its course? I’m sure some guys at this level have to get a fucking job of some sort, right? Let’s hear about it, not so that we can laugh at them but so we can better put into perspective their own commitment to their art and whatever our own meager creative efforts might be. The myth of the glamorous rock star living off his or her royalties can’t be that prevalent, can it?
Good call on the need for that Wonder bio. If I could ever remember the outrageous thing I said about him years ago, I may be the man to scape away the bullshit. Perhaps the most-talented "needle-lifter" artist in history?
2007-05-19 @ 00:43
Comment from: chickenfrank [Member]
There's an odd scene in the Joe Strummer and the Mescaleros documentary titled Let's Rock Again, they are playing Atlantic City, and Joe is out on the boardwalk earlier that day begging various people to come to his show that night. Didn't seem like he was swimming in back catalogue cash. Just bizarre that he wasn't instantly recognized like Bono or Billy Idol would be.
"Behind the Laughter : The Nixon's Head Story" A chronicle of 25 years of drummer abuse.
"Behind the Laughter : The Nixon's Head Story" A chronicle of 25 years of drummer abuse.
2007-05-19 @ 06:55
Comment from: sally_cinnamon [Member]
Tim DeLaughter (sp?) of the Polyphonic Spree owns his own record shop and label in Dallas, bought I'm sure with money from his days of playing with Tripping Daisy before he started the PS (probably has a lot to do with why he could do this weird band project in his spare time) called Good Records. The most notable band on Good so far has been Grandaddy I think. I have no idea what all the other robed people will do. Maybe they're record clerks and share shifts? :) I'm kidding, kind of. But, good call on what bands do on their off years to stay afloat, and/or stay sane after all that being in the spotlight has faded - or as you say "once the gravy train runs its course".
2007-05-19 @ 07:44
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
Hey Al,
I found that Intentions record for ya. Better open your wallet REAL WIDE.
http://www1.gemm.com/item/INTENTIONS/I'M--IN--LOVE--WITH--A--GO-d-GO--GIRL-l-A--WOND/GML904727660/
Yours,
E. Pluribus
I found that Intentions record for ya. Better open your wallet REAL WIDE.
http://www1.gemm.com/item/INTENTIONS/I'M--IN--LOVE--WITH--A--GO-d-GO--GIRL-l-A--WOND/GML904727660/
Yours,
E. Pluribus
2007-05-19 @ 09:45
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
No one else has a book to pitch? I'm sure there are more than a few of us in need of a great, new rock read that's not yet written.
2007-05-19 @ 11:05
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
I enjoyed Simon Reynolds' Rip It Up and Start Again: Postpunk 1978-1984, even though it tries to cover so much territory that some parts were almost like the Cliff Notes version.
Given the time period covered, I'd recommend it to Mr. Gergely, because it might help him figure out what went wrong in the fateful year of 1981.
Given the time period covered, I'd recommend it to Mr. Gergely, because it might help him figure out what went wrong in the fateful year of 1981.
2007-05-19 @ 11:14
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Chickenfrank, you saw that Strummer movie? Is it worth seeing? Do tell!
2007-05-19 @ 11:58
Comment from: sammymaudlin [Member]
I haven't had a lot of luck with my rock reads. They seem to come in a limited number of varieties, none of which excite me:
*Technical mumbo-jumbo and recording minutia tomes
*Written by spurned lover
*Written by would-be stalker
*Strings of quotes from a variety of participants
Of all those, I tend to appreciate the string of quotes variety.
Given all that, Mad Props to the Cinnamon Girl for recommending A Riot of Our Own
written by the Clash's roadie-manager guy. No romanticizing, no deification, no social commentary, no nothing really just funny and interesting stories told from a unique vantage point. He isn't even a very good writer, yet rather than being about something the read feels like your there and just chatting it up with some bloke.
*Technical mumbo-jumbo and recording minutia tomes
*Written by spurned lover
*Written by would-be stalker
*Strings of quotes from a variety of participants
Of all those, I tend to appreciate the string of quotes variety.
Given all that, Mad Props to the Cinnamon Girl for recommending A Riot of Our Own
written by the Clash's roadie-manager guy. No romanticizing, no deification, no social commentary, no nothing really just funny and interesting stories told from a unique vantage point. He isn't even a very good writer, yet rather than being about something the read feels like your there and just chatting it up with some bloke.
2007-05-19 @ 12:29
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
There are also good books on Blur (3862 Days: The Official History of Blur) and The Pet Shop Boys (Pet Shop Boys, Literally) if anyone is interested in those artists.
And I just read Greil Marcus' Dead Elvis, which I quite liked. There's some silly stuff in there, but if you like Elvis (and if you don't, what in the world is wrong with you?) it's worth a look.
And I just read Greil Marcus' Dead Elvis, which I quite liked. There's some silly stuff in there, but if you like Elvis (and if you don't, what in the world is wrong with you?) it's worth a look.
2007-05-19 @ 12:33
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
Hey Maudlin,
About a year ago, I read a great book about the Ramones by their manager. Same thing you said previously. So-so writing, but the storytelling was great. I'll take great storytelling over half assed writing any day. My brother and I always battle it out over this one. He always opts for the writer with the grammar skills. Not me. Give me the story. And I don't care if it comes scrawled out ala George "The Animal" Steele as long as it's a page turner. Big surprise, huh?
Another great "I can't write real well, but I can tell a hell of a story" book is "The Man Who Gave The Beatles Away" by The Beatles' first manager Alan Williams. I lent that book to someone years ago and never got it back. Gotta read that one again soon.
Talk to ya soon,
E. Pluribus
About a year ago, I read a great book about the Ramones by their manager. Same thing you said previously. So-so writing, but the storytelling was great. I'll take great storytelling over half assed writing any day. My brother and I always battle it out over this one. He always opts for the writer with the grammar skills. Not me. Give me the story. And I don't care if it comes scrawled out ala George "The Animal" Steele as long as it's a page turner. Big surprise, huh?
Another great "I can't write real well, but I can tell a hell of a story" book is "The Man Who Gave The Beatles Away" by The Beatles' first manager Alan Williams. I lent that book to someone years ago and never got it back. Gotta read that one again soon.
Talk to ya soon,
E. Pluribus
2007-05-19 @ 14:00
Comment from: chickenfrank [Member]
I haven't seen THE Joe Strummer movie, The Future is Unwritten, but the OTHER Joe Strummer movie by our main man, Dick Rude. It comes off as what it is: a film made by a friend following him around with a video camera for a few weeks. It's kind of entertaining, but could also have been edited down to 30 minutes. Enjoyed it as a Sundance channel movie selection.
Great call, Saturn! The Man Who Gave the Beatles Away is the most fun Beatles bio. All the cool stories that you hoped you could read about Hamburg! Mach Shau indeed! Allen Williams is my new 5th.
Great call, Saturn! The Man Who Gave the Beatles Away is the most fun Beatles bio. All the cool stories that you hoped you could read about Hamburg! Mach Shau indeed! Allen Williams is my new 5th.
2007-05-19 @ 17:57
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
Chickenfrank,
Do you own a copy of that book? If so, may I borrow it?
Hope to hear from you soon,
E. Pluribus
Do you own a copy of that book? If so, may I borrow it?
Hope to hear from you soon,
E. Pluribus
2007-05-19 @ 18:41
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
Chickenfrank,
One more thing. Any recent revisiting of Channed Heat's "Refried Boogie"? If so, does it hold up?
One more thing. Any recent revisiting of Channed Heat's "Refried Boogie"? If so, does it hold up?
2007-05-19 @ 18:55
Comment from: chickenfrank [Member]
E-Plurb,
I'll check my racks, and when I find my copy, it's yours.
Refried Boogie only suffers from being too short. It really should have been 2 sides of the album instead of just one.
I'll check my racks, and when I find my copy, it's yours.
Refried Boogie only suffers from being too short. It really should have been 2 sides of the album instead of just one.
2007-05-19 @ 21:41
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
Refried Boogie only suffers from being too short. It really should have been 2 sides of the album instead of just one.I think it was two sides on the Living the Blues double album. I always liked the version of One Kind Favor that's on that record. It's the one with Goin' Up the Country too.
2007-05-20 @ 11:57
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
One other simple question. How does one refry a boogie?
Hope to hear from someone ASAP!
E. Pluribus
Hope to hear from someone ASAP!
E. Pluribus
2007-05-20 @ 12:01
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
E-Plurb asks:
One other simple question. How does one refry a boogie?
I answer:
I'm not *entirely* sure, but I'm pretty sure bare feet, overalls, greasy hair and extreme whiteness are involved.
Seriously, what the hell were the rock critics of the late 60s smoking that they didn't smell the Canned Heat turd from miles away?!
One other simple question. How does one refry a boogie?
I answer:
I'm not *entirely* sure, but I'm pretty sure bare feet, overalls, greasy hair and extreme whiteness are involved.
Seriously, what the hell were the rock critics of the late 60s smoking that they didn't smell the Canned Heat turd from miles away?!
2007-05-20 @ 12:53
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
One other simple question. How does one refry a boogie?Refried Boogie is a reprise of a song on Canned Heat's previous album, Fried Hockey Boogie. So the more important question is, how do you fry hockey?
2007-05-20 @ 12:53
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
Hrundi sayz:
"I'm not *entirely* sure, but I'm pretty sure bare feet, overalls, greasy hair and extreme whiteness are involved."
Now that was funny! What amazes me is that someone actually bought the "Living with the Blues" LP and actually worked up a froth while that bowl filler, "Refried Boogie" slowly drizzled out of the band's collective ass!
Yours,
E. Pluribus
"I'm not *entirely* sure, but I'm pretty sure bare feet, overalls, greasy hair and extreme whiteness are involved."
Now that was funny! What amazes me is that someone actually bought the "Living with the Blues" LP and actually worked up a froth while that bowl filler, "Refried Boogie" slowly drizzled out of the band's collective ass!
Yours,
E. Pluribus
2007-05-20 @ 15:15
Comment from: geo [Member]
Hrundi says:
"Seriously, what the hell were the rock critics of the late 60s smoking that they didn't smell the Canned Heat turd from miles away?!"
Believe me, in their day Canned Heat were not critics' darlings, but rather "the people's choice", loved for their sloppy, goofy boogie party. As a Jim Dandy admirer, surely you can understand this.
"Seriously, what the hell were the rock critics of the late 60s smoking that they didn't smell the Canned Heat turd from miles away?!"
Believe me, in their day Canned Heat were not critics' darlings, but rather "the people's choice", loved for their sloppy, goofy boogie party. As a Jim Dandy admirer, surely you can understand this.
2007-05-20 @ 16:12
Comment from: geo [Member]
Oh, and massive quantities of weed certainly aided in the digestion of the "Refried Boogie".
2007-05-20 @ 16:14
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
George sayz:
"Oh, and massive quantities of weed certainly aided in the digestion of the 'Refried Boogie'."
Another good one!
Maybe you're the man that can solve the mystery. When you were a younger man, we're talking around the time when "Living the Blues" was released, did you ever actually witness a buddy in a record store pick up a Canned Heatlike LP and make some sort of pronouncement like "Yes! This one's got a 25 minute boogie workout on side 2. Can't wait to hear this mother!" The very idea that such a thing might have occurred is absolutely incredible.
Hope to hear from you soon,
E. Pluribus
"Oh, and massive quantities of weed certainly aided in the digestion of the 'Refried Boogie'."
Another good one!
Maybe you're the man that can solve the mystery. When you were a younger man, we're talking around the time when "Living the Blues" was released, did you ever actually witness a buddy in a record store pick up a Canned Heatlike LP and make some sort of pronouncement like "Yes! This one's got a 25 minute boogie workout on side 2. Can't wait to hear this mother!" The very idea that such a thing might have occurred is absolutely incredible.
Hope to hear from you soon,
E. Pluribus
2007-05-20 @ 16:32
Comment from: Oats [Member]
By the way, Eplurb, I just remembered another rock book I think you may dig: Andy Miller's book about Village Green Preservation Society. Probably the best Kinks book. He really understands what makes that album, and The Kinks in general, tick.
2007-05-20 @ 19:33
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
When you were a younger man, we're talking around the time when "Living the Blues" was released, did you ever actually witness a buddy in a record store pick up a Canned Heatlike LP and make some sort of pronouncement like "Yes! This one's got a 25 minute boogie workout on side 2. Can't wait to hear this mother!" The very idea that such a thing might have occurred is absolutely incredible.I bought the Living the Blues LP around the time it was released. What you've got to remember is that the 3 minute song is not divinely ordained. It was imposed by the physical imitations of 78s and then 45s. When LPs appeared there was a natural tendency to record longer musical forms. In a live setting, bands certainly didn't play a sequence of three-minute songs, not all of them anyway. Did this lead to some self-indulgent wankery? Of course it did. But it also allowed the side-long version of Dark Star to be available on record, which was a good thing.
So the short answer to your question is yes. I had heard/seen Canned Heat perform these extended "boogie workouts" live, and it didn't seem "absolutely incredible" that these performances should be available on record.
Another thing to keep in mind is that at that time the entire history of recorded blues music was not readily available like it is now. You couldn't buy Muddy Waters Chess recordings, not easily anyway, to say nothing of Charley Patton and Son House. The guys in Canned Heat were record collectors who had actually heard that stuff and formed a band to play it. Acid and other drugs entered the picture and muddied the waters, so to speak, but it's unfair to compare bands like Canned Heat to the 'real' blues, because very few people had heard the real thing back then.
2007-05-20 @ 21:53
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
Hey Steve,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Dark Star thee prime example of self-indulgent wankery? God almighty! God bless ya if ya can make it through that whole thing without throwing up.
You're alright, my man, but your taste blows!
Talk to ya soon,
E. Pluribus
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Dark Star thee prime example of self-indulgent wankery? God almighty! God bless ya if ya can make it through that whole thing without throwing up.
You're alright, my man, but your taste blows!
Talk to ya soon,
E. Pluribus
2007-05-21 @ 17:50
Comment from: shawnkilroy [Member]
Heroes and Villians, the Beach Boys book is just astounding.
Up and Down with the Rolling Stones is also great, written by "spanish Tony", Keith's procurer.
Up and Down with the Rolling Stones is also great, written by "spanish Tony", Keith's procurer.
2007-05-21 @ 19:03
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
e queried:
Let me turn it around and ask you if you've ever listened to a 23-minute piece of music that you did not think was self-indulgent wankery. If the answer is no, then you're not in a position to judge.
Music comes in all sizes, and the only way to know when you've gone far enough is when you've gone too far.
Hey Steve,The Dead may have occasionally have been self-indulgent, especially in concert, but the Live/Dead version of Dark Star is great. I'm not saying I've never thrown up during it, because peyote does that to you sometimes (as Tony Soprano found out last week), but music does not always come in easily digestible 3-minute servings.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Dark Star thee prime example of self-indulgent wankery? God almighty! God bless ya if ya can make it through that whole thing without throwing up.
You're alright, my man, but your taste blows!
Let me turn it around and ask you if you've ever listened to a 23-minute piece of music that you did not think was self-indulgent wankery. If the answer is no, then you're not in a position to judge.
Music comes in all sizes, and the only way to know when you've gone far enough is when you've gone too far.
2007-05-21 @ 19:22
Comment from: sally_cinnamon [Member]
Music comes in all sizes, and the only way to know when you've gone far enough is when you've gone too far.That's a cool quote Big Steve.
2007-05-21 @ 19:24
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
Steve sayz:
"Let me turn it around and ask you if you've ever listened to a 23-minute piece of music that you did not think was self-indulgent wankery. If the answer is no, then you're not in a position to judge."
Here's your chance, Mr. Moderator. If you won't deliver the goods, I know my man Andyr. will.
Hope to hear from you soon,
E. Pluribus
P.S. I'm with ya on both of those books, Kilroy, especially the Stones book. I read it in Hungary while me and the ball and chain were staying with the Moderator and his wife. Gotta read that one again.
Talk to ya soon,
E. Pluribus
"Let me turn it around and ask you if you've ever listened to a 23-minute piece of music that you did not think was self-indulgent wankery. If the answer is no, then you're not in a position to judge."
Here's your chance, Mr. Moderator. If you won't deliver the goods, I know my man Andyr. will.
Hope to hear from you soon,
E. Pluribus
P.S. I'm with ya on both of those books, Kilroy, especially the Stones book. I read it in Hungary while me and the ball and chain were staying with the Moderator and his wife. Gotta read that one again.
Talk to ya soon,
E. Pluribus
2007-05-21 @ 19:41
Comment from: mwall [Member]
"Let me turn it around and ask you if you've ever listened to a 23-minute piece of music that you did not think was self-indulgent wankery. If the answer is no, then you're not in a position to judge."
Here's your chance, Mr. Moderator. If you won't deliver the goods, I know my man Andyr. will.
I look forward to their analysis of John Coltrane's Ascension as part of this discussion--38 minutes in the first, shorter version.
But as for rock music, the longest pieces of music I'm aware of enjoying are Sister Ray at 17-plus, then Whipping Post and Mountain Jam coming in, in the deluxe edition of Fillmore East, at about 23 and 33 minutes respectively. Such things do raise a debate, I'd grant, about what we mean by the term "song," which could very well have a much smaller time limit attached.
2007-05-21 @ 20:52
Comment from: geo [Member]
I'm with Big Steve on this. I know the problems with the Dead, but there are absolutely good things about them and the Dark Star version from Live Dead is the epitome of their main strength. Garcia was a great long-form soloist, capable of developing a solo over a variety of sections and transitions, including changes in tone and approach that lay out a long form dramatic development. The other guys, especially Lesh but really all of them were capable of providing a sympathetic and fluid backdrop that frames his solos beautifully. I'm a huge fan of the first three sides of Live Dead, although I'd admit that the singing on on St. Stephen/The Eleven is excruciating at times. The journey through the modal Dark Star, to the proto-prog rock of The Eleven into the extended Pig Pen R'n'B workout of Love Light, featuring some really entertaining double drum work is every bit as entertaining as it is long, probably about 50 continuous minutes. People who complain that Garcia is a directionless noodler really should give Live Dead a single close listen.
2007-05-21 @ 21:43
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
E Pluribus wrote:
Well, golly gee, my man, I sure do hope I make you proud someday...
I'm comfortable discussing my general dislike of the Dead and and most 23-minute songs, in general, but seeing as how I do like a few long songs in the history of rock and jazz, I guess I am fit to judge. What do you want me to do, beat the crap out of a Deadhead for you?
Here's your chance, Mr. Moderator. If you won't deliver the goods, I know my man Andyr. will.
Well, golly gee, my man, I sure do hope I make you proud someday...
I'm comfortable discussing my general dislike of the Dead and and most 23-minute songs, in general, but seeing as how I do like a few long songs in the history of rock and jazz, I guess I am fit to judge. What do you want me to do, beat the crap out of a Deadhead for you?
2007-05-21 @ 22:12
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
I'm not talking jazz. I'm talking rock. Shoulda known you were gonna be a wus.
Andyr., step up to the plate and take a full swing.
Hope to hear from ya soon,
E. Pluribus
Andyr., step up to the plate and take a full swing.
Hope to hear from ya soon,
E. Pluribus
2007-05-22 @ 06:54
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