The Greatest Prock Artist You've Never Heard: Tamio Okuda
By hrrundivbakshi on May 31, 2007
Feeling somewhat humbled by the lack of novelty in my last Thrifty Music installment, I was very pleased to have made a major score on my last 80-cent LP purchase: the album Crache Ton Venin, by French punk/hard rockers Telephone. I'd certainly never heard these guys before, and I was pleasantly surprised by the sheer rockin' excellence of this disc.
But then my guilt got to me. See, I've been meaning to introduce you folks to another non-Anglophone rocker for months now, and I keep putting it off. But no longer! In the interest of clearing the decks for a Telephone post yet to come, today is the day I finally share my enthusiasm for Japanese procker Tamio Okuda.
I was introduced to Okuda second-hand, by reputation, back when I was going through a bit of a Jellyfish phase a number of years ago. While searching for the whereabouts of main Jellyfisher Andy Sturmer, I kept reading that he had teamed up with some Japanese pop star, writing music for the guy. I found this curious; most J-pop I knew was awful, treacly stuff -- though it had been many, many years since I really followed it much.
This was back in the early days of the InterWeb, and these tantalizing name-drops were all I had -- until I took a trip to Japan to visit my brother in 2001. Armed only with a name, I took my pidgin Japanese to the local wrecka stow and asked the clerk if he had any Tamio on the shelves. He looked at me in the same way an American clerk might stare down a Japanese tourist who asked if please there might be any Rolling Stones for purchase in your fine music disc shop please -- i.e., like I was mildly retarded. He then guided me back to the T.O. section and let me go hog wild. I bought everything I could get my hands on, knowing there was no way to get this stuff back home.
When I got back to the hotel, I popped open my discman and plopped Tamio's album 30 in it, cueing up the one song I knew Sturmer had co-written: "Coffee". It satisfied all my deepest, darkest prock urges, delivering a song that sounded like Badfinger, Wings, XTC, and all the best Jeff Lynne hook-craft one could wish for. There was a part of me that felt somewhat ashamed by the music's total lack of novelty, but the excellence of songcraft was undeniable, and, well, you get the idea.
Follow up:
As I plowed through the album, however, it became clear to me that Sturmer was actually a bit of a stylistic albatross around Tamio's neck. The Okuda-penned material was frequently quirky and featured novel production touches I'd never heard the likes of before. Here's an Okuda original entitled "103" that'll give you an idea what I'm talking about. Check out those nausea-inducing, herky-jerky stops in the rhythm track. How cool is that!
A more recent album in the stack I bought, Goldblend, was even stronger -- in fact, near-flawless from one end to the other. Here's a track from that album, entitled "Aho" (meaning "idiot" or "crazy" in Japanese) that also showcases Tamio's novel approach to production. Listen carefully! Hear that track, buried deep in the background? It's an entire band, going ape-shit, distorto-bashing crazy, Nirvana-stylee or something. Nifty!
But, look, despite these flourishes, the truth of the matter is that Tamio is a total, out-and-out prockist. And, sadly, these straight-ahead, not-bad-but-not-necessarily-good-either tendencies have really come to the fore in his recent albums. The fact that he hangs out with Steve Jordan and Waddy Wachtel ought to tell you something. Here's a winning song and video entitled "Marshmallow" from his Goldblend album that just barely skirts the edges of plagiarism (name that tune!) in the name of quality prock. This is as close as I ever want my prock to get to its source material; still, the guy's winning, everyman personality gets him past the rock misdemeanours hearing, as far as I'm concerned -- if only barely.
Townsman Velv has frequently said that XTC suffered as a result of their extracurricular dalliances with psanctioned psychedelia in their Dukes of Stratosphear guise. I wonder if Tamio had the same problem with Puffy Amiyumi, for whom he played the songwriting/production/svengali role, launching them to HUGE success in the Japanese market. It seems once he got a taste for prock, he couldn't let the candy alone. Here are two Puffy Amiyumi songs Mr Okuda wrote and produced. Beatles? ELO, anyone?
Anyhow, I'm running out of steam, and you've probably read enough about this tertiary rock personality anyhow. The sad fact is, prock or no, I really dig Tamio Okuda. It helps that he's apparently a genuinely nice guy who really LOVES his influences -- frequently performing in cover bands called The Geatles and Red Zeppelin in clubs around Tokyo. If only our western Prock Stars had the balls to come out of the Prock Closet as boldly as that.
76 comments
Comment from: sally_cinnamon [Member] 
This is a great post, Hrrundi! I can dig that song, but I'd prefer it without the castanets sounding on it every few. Very 70s sounding. I like a few j-pop things, Puffy Ami Yumi have some interesting tracks, Radio Tokyo is a great one, and I was also into Faye Wong. I sought out her music after seeing Wong Kar Wai's Chungking Express, and it turns out her CDs were already available (on bootleg only of course) in all of the shoppes that I was haunting for Hello Kitty supplies and import candy. Faye inspired the title of my first long-running fanzine too: "Idoru" that I put out with two other friends. Anyway, enjoyed reading your post and hearing that track, very cool - thanks!
2007-05-27 @ 21:34
Comment from: sally_cinnamon [Member]
p.s. the band in that vid could easily be the Japanese Oasis;)
2007-05-27 @ 21:38
Comment from: sally_cinnamon [Member]
The fact that he hangs out with Steve Jordan and Waddy Wachtel ought to tell you something. Here's a winning song and video entitled "Marshmallow" from his Goldblend album that just barely skirts the edges of plagiarism (name that tune!)DIE Alright, by The Hives?
2007-05-27 @ 21:40
Comment from: andyr [Member]
I liked the music - couldn't really get into the lyrics as much :) he's defintiely in the Lenny Kravitz/Matthew Sweet mold of being able to ape anything. I always thought that Matthew and Lenny should collaborate.
It is amazing how little there is on this guy in the western press.
It is amazing how little there is on this guy in the western press.
2007-05-28 @ 12:16
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
Velv -- good call on the similarities between Tamio and Kravitz/Sweet. To my mind, he's stylistically more Sweet, but popularity-wise, more Kravitz. This guy is *huge* in Japan -- though he's entering into Japanese Rock Elder Statesman-hood now.
I tell you, I was so impressed with the overall vibrancy of the Japanese music scene the last time I was there. An entire floor of the Tokyo Tower record store (still open long after they'd closed over here) was devoted to Japanese product, and it was *packed*. Really great music, too. Dozens of listening stations, all of them crowded; it just felt *healthy* in a way our scene over here feels moribund.
I tell you, I was so impressed with the overall vibrancy of the Japanese music scene the last time I was there. An entire floor of the Tokyo Tower record store (still open long after they'd closed over here) was devoted to Japanese product, and it was *packed*. Really great music, too. Dozens of listening stations, all of them crowded; it just felt *healthy* in a way our scene over here feels moribund.
2007-05-28 @ 13:09
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
fritz,
i don't really like this all that much. i tried....
hopefully, these thoughts aren't offensive:
-i didn't like the mix of the first song. that snare's way too tight and loud.
-his vocals always sound really clumsy to me...not very easy on the ear.
- i kept thinking that if there were lyrics in english delivered this way, with these mixes, that maybe even YOU wouldn't give him a second thought. i'm probably wrong about this...
-his persona is pretty dorky (that Geatles thing? sheesh, dude, pret-ty lame...and i feel guilty about saying it, because they seem like such nice guys, all smiley and stuff), he's kinda like taylor hicks or...abba...or that horrible mayer fellow who's banging a super model right now or something...
sorry dude, it just doesn't scratch the itch...
ever listen to the noisier side of japanese rock?
i don't really like this all that much. i tried....
hopefully, these thoughts aren't offensive:
-i didn't like the mix of the first song. that snare's way too tight and loud.
-his vocals always sound really clumsy to me...not very easy on the ear.
- i kept thinking that if there were lyrics in english delivered this way, with these mixes, that maybe even YOU wouldn't give him a second thought. i'm probably wrong about this...
-his persona is pretty dorky (that Geatles thing? sheesh, dude, pret-ty lame...and i feel guilty about saying it, because they seem like such nice guys, all smiley and stuff), he's kinda like taylor hicks or...abba...or that horrible mayer fellow who's banging a super model right now or something...
sorry dude, it just doesn't scratch the itch...
ever listen to the noisier side of japanese rock?
2007-05-28 @ 18:34
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
A friend bought me one of this guy's albums about 5 years ago. He'd raved about him for some time, and once he played me a bunch of that Puffy Amiyumi, which made me nauseous - the way a really rich chocolate cake once made me nauseous. Anyhow, I tried with the Okuda album, but it was kind of clunky. I'll have to spend more time with these tracks you've posted. I keep thinking about Jellyfish, a band I've never liked.
2007-05-28 @ 22:26
Comment from: the great 48 [Member]
You got a problem with Abba, then you gotta problem with me.
Not this guy, though. He kinda sucks. And that Telephone album is Stones-obsessed fake-punk.
Not this guy, though. He kinda sucks. And that Telephone album is Stones-obsessed fake-punk.
2007-05-28 @ 22:27
Comment from: sally_cinnamon [Member]
ever listen to the noisier side of japanese rock?let's have your picks! i can think of some (mostly stuff that you probably already know, and a few others that I can't think of right now):
* melt-banana (noise/exp)
* guitar wolf (garage/noise)
* the boredoms (noise/exp)
* the 5,6,7,8's (garage)
* the gimmies (punk/garage)
my friend aaron did a tour a year or two ago of japan with the band ogre you asshole who are kinda neat - crazy name,
http://www.myspace.com/ogreyouassholemusic
i missed japan nite at the khyber this year, but I think i would have liked to go -
2007-05-28 @ 23:28
Comment from: the great 48 [Member]
I strongly recommend the more recent band Gitogito Hustler to any fan of Japanese girl-punk, as they have a bit more actual musical ability than most, although not so much that you'd notice.
Another big fave is a trio called Slapp Happy Humphrey: one guy on acoustic guitar and violin, one girl on vocals, both of them performing very soft, quiet songs associated with a particular female pop idol of the '70s. In the meantime, an electric guitarist named Jojo Hiroshige comes in every so often and just kind of goes batshit crazy, then leaves again. They only did one record, as far as I know, but I find it exceedingly charming.
Then there's Angel'in Heavy Syrup, but they're not really that noisy. And of course then you get into stuff like Ghost and the Acid Mothers.
Another big fave is a trio called Slapp Happy Humphrey: one guy on acoustic guitar and violin, one girl on vocals, both of them performing very soft, quiet songs associated with a particular female pop idol of the '70s. In the meantime, an electric guitarist named Jojo Hiroshige comes in every so often and just kind of goes batshit crazy, then leaves again. They only did one record, as far as I know, but I find it exceedingly charming.
Then there's Angel'in Heavy Syrup, but they're not really that noisy. And of course then you get into stuff like Ghost and the Acid Mothers.
2007-05-29 @ 02:49
Comment from: sally_cinnamon [Member]
This is so weird, but I always thought that Ghost were from Detroit(!) I saw them in 2000 at a place called Alvin's - possibly because my friend Matt's band Outrageous Cherry was playing(?) with Damon & Naomi(?) - could this be the same band? I think I have an album by them too somewhere in my vinyl too...
2007-05-29 @ 06:47
Comment from: the great 48 [Member]
Ah, I played Matt's song "Saturday Afternoon" during my last radio appearance. I've been a fan for quite a while.
Yes, this would be the same band: Damon and Naomi recorded at least one album with Ghost, possibly two. But they're definitely a Japanese band.
Yes, this would be the same band: Damon and Naomi recorded at least one album with Ghost, possibly two. But they're definitely a Japanese band.
2007-05-29 @ 11:02
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Hrrundi,
I'm listening to this stuff some more, and it all sounds OK and, even, pretty good, but there's something severely missing in the singing, and one thing, I'm sorry to say - maybe in light of the unimaginative melodies - is the English language. Hearing OK versions of types of music I like well enough without knowing what the hell is being sung is not helping me. As much as I'm not a "lyrics first" guy, I want to know what Jeff Lynn'es singing in the chorus of "Strange Magic". Without that direct connection to the intent of the melody, it's all surface. WHen I hear music that's not so directly aping Western rock 'n roll, it's another matter, although even then I often wish I could understand if the alluring melody supported some lyrics I could care about. I might be listening to some beautiful melody some day and be unaware that the lyrics are describing some kitschy hotrod race between Elvis and Hitler (ie, the sort of lyrics that usually make me groan).
I'm listening to this stuff some more, and it all sounds OK and, even, pretty good, but there's something severely missing in the singing, and one thing, I'm sorry to say - maybe in light of the unimaginative melodies - is the English language. Hearing OK versions of types of music I like well enough without knowing what the hell is being sung is not helping me. As much as I'm not a "lyrics first" guy, I want to know what Jeff Lynn'es singing in the chorus of "Strange Magic". Without that direct connection to the intent of the melody, it's all surface. WHen I hear music that's not so directly aping Western rock 'n roll, it's another matter, although even then I often wish I could understand if the alluring melody supported some lyrics I could care about. I might be listening to some beautiful melody some day and be unaware that the lyrics are describing some kitschy hotrod race between Elvis and Hitler (ie, the sort of lyrics that usually make me groan).
2007-05-29 @ 13:00
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
Hey Hrundi,
I love ya, brother, but I'm with the Moderator on this one. I want the goods delivered in English. The very idea that a foreign artist believes he/she can communicate best via the popular culture of the United States or England is nauseating. Really. How good can the shit be if the communication is that indirect?
Trust me, nothing is worse than getting stuck in a postage stamp sized apartment with some phony hipster hitting you repeatedly with a barrage of garbage from the likes of The Shakers, Shonen Knife, the clod you're celebrating, etc. Hell, if you're that desperate for sounds, the polka scene might not be such a bad thing to check out.
Like I said, I love ya brother, but stay away from the garbage. Once you cross the six lane highway, there's no turning back. The taste mechanism dulls and truly awful things begin to happen. I fear you're not that far away from acquiring a taste for Hal Hartley movies.
Talk to ya soon,
E. Pluribus
I love ya, brother, but I'm with the Moderator on this one. I want the goods delivered in English. The very idea that a foreign artist believes he/she can communicate best via the popular culture of the United States or England is nauseating. Really. How good can the shit be if the communication is that indirect?
Trust me, nothing is worse than getting stuck in a postage stamp sized apartment with some phony hipster hitting you repeatedly with a barrage of garbage from the likes of The Shakers, Shonen Knife, the clod you're celebrating, etc. Hell, if you're that desperate for sounds, the polka scene might not be such a bad thing to check out.
Like I said, I love ya brother, but stay away from the garbage. Once you cross the six lane highway, there's no turning back. The taste mechanism dulls and truly awful things begin to happen. I fear you're not that far away from acquiring a taste for Hal Hartley movies.
Talk to ya soon,
E. Pluribus
2007-05-30 @ 19:07
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
Hey, Plurbie --
Listen, I feel compelled to respond to your commentary, and in so doing, to the comments of other RTHers on this topic.
Let me start by saying that I am in complete agreement with you that the majority of Japanese rocklo-cultural exports suck total ass. Why? Because they're marketed to urban hipsters as either a.) wacky; b.) hyper-kitsch or c.) extreeeeeeme examples of whatever genre they happen to be aping. I'm always astonished at how oblivious American rock elitists are to the freak show aspect of their tastes in foreign rock. Fuck that shit! Why do the French, or the Japanese, or the Indians, or the Yap Islanders, have to produce something that makes me laugh, or shake with rage, or scratch my head in befuddlement? I don't ask (insert your favorite American rocker here) to put out like that for my amusement -- and you know me: mach schau and all that. No, I say: give me quality rock and roll in any language! And so it is that with a dismissive wave of my hand, I commend the beret-wearing Great48s of the world to the corner of Mom's basement to sulk in solitude.
With another dismissive wave of the hand, my friend, I must send you out into the world to better understand what makes for good rock and roll. The notion that it has to be performed in English, between the years 1956 and 1981, and recorded exclusively on vinyl, is completely absurd.
For some reason, this reminds me of the first time I went to a local El Salvadorean beanery with some college friends of mine who were new to the food and the culture of the region. The restaurant was a hodge-podge collection of formica tables, vinyl-upholstered chairs, tacky paintings of sunsets and a giant photo mural of a beach scene across the main wall -- in short, it looked like the interior of every "classy" Central American restaurant I'd ever been to in the region. My buddies, however, didn't understand the decor, and thought it was completely cheesey/fakey/not at all "authentically" Central American. Well, the joke was on them, buddy. The whole freaking world sits on vinyl chairs, and eats their grub off of ugly, made-in-China replicas of 30-year old American china patterns. Cross-cultural imitation is the new authenticity -- and salsa is the most popular condiment in the United States of America, to boot. You need to get used to it, and figure out how to live in this brave new world. I mean, come ON -- Japanese people have to plunk on three-stringed cat-gut banjos and warble unintelligible Noh poetry for it to be "real" enough for you?
In other news, I watched "Grindhouse" in one of those beat-down movie theaters where they let you smoke and drink beer to make up for the fact that the movies they're showing are two months out of mainstream circulation. The first half was funnier than a turd in a urinal, in a gross-out zombie kind of way. But the Tarantino half was literally unwatchably bad. I can now say with pride that I've walked out of every Tarantino movie I've ever seen. Hope that takes the edge off my stinging rebuke, and lays at least a little common ground between us. I don't want to have to start an old-school showbiz feud with you, but if I have to, I will.
Listen, I feel compelled to respond to your commentary, and in so doing, to the comments of other RTHers on this topic.
Let me start by saying that I am in complete agreement with you that the majority of Japanese rocklo-cultural exports suck total ass. Why? Because they're marketed to urban hipsters as either a.) wacky; b.) hyper-kitsch or c.) extreeeeeeme examples of whatever genre they happen to be aping. I'm always astonished at how oblivious American rock elitists are to the freak show aspect of their tastes in foreign rock. Fuck that shit! Why do the French, or the Japanese, or the Indians, or the Yap Islanders, have to produce something that makes me laugh, or shake with rage, or scratch my head in befuddlement? I don't ask (insert your favorite American rocker here) to put out like that for my amusement -- and you know me: mach schau and all that. No, I say: give me quality rock and roll in any language! And so it is that with a dismissive wave of my hand, I commend the beret-wearing Great48s of the world to the corner of Mom's basement to sulk in solitude.
With another dismissive wave of the hand, my friend, I must send you out into the world to better understand what makes for good rock and roll. The notion that it has to be performed in English, between the years 1956 and 1981, and recorded exclusively on vinyl, is completely absurd.
For some reason, this reminds me of the first time I went to a local El Salvadorean beanery with some college friends of mine who were new to the food and the culture of the region. The restaurant was a hodge-podge collection of formica tables, vinyl-upholstered chairs, tacky paintings of sunsets and a giant photo mural of a beach scene across the main wall -- in short, it looked like the interior of every "classy" Central American restaurant I'd ever been to in the region. My buddies, however, didn't understand the decor, and thought it was completely cheesey/fakey/not at all "authentically" Central American. Well, the joke was on them, buddy. The whole freaking world sits on vinyl chairs, and eats their grub off of ugly, made-in-China replicas of 30-year old American china patterns. Cross-cultural imitation is the new authenticity -- and salsa is the most popular condiment in the United States of America, to boot. You need to get used to it, and figure out how to live in this brave new world. I mean, come ON -- Japanese people have to plunk on three-stringed cat-gut banjos and warble unintelligible Noh poetry for it to be "real" enough for you?
In other news, I watched "Grindhouse" in one of those beat-down movie theaters where they let you smoke and drink beer to make up for the fact that the movies they're showing are two months out of mainstream circulation. The first half was funnier than a turd in a urinal, in a gross-out zombie kind of way. But the Tarantino half was literally unwatchably bad. I can now say with pride that I've walked out of every Tarantino movie I've ever seen. Hope that takes the edge off my stinging rebuke, and lays at least a little common ground between us. I don't want to have to start an old-school showbiz feud with you, but if I have to, I will.
2007-05-30 @ 21:37
Comment from: the great 48 [Member]
Hrrundi:
If this guy sang in English, he'd be Matthew Sweet. At best. So why does his singing in Japanese make him awesome?
If this guy sang in English, he'd be Matthew Sweet. At best. So why does his singing in Japanese make him awesome?
2007-05-30 @ 23:14
Comment from: mwall [Member]
No, I say: give me quality rock and roll in any language!
Ah, folks, this whole discussion is very confused, on all counts. Rock and roll comes from a certain cultural context, and people from that context play rock and roll better. Music from other contexts can be equally amazing, but that music won't be rock and roll. And music can also cross cultural contexts, and if it does that well, and part of its context is rock and roll, then it will be interesting music with a rock and roll element, but not rock and roll. I hope that helps.
All best,
Mark
2007-05-31 @ 00:33
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
I'm sorry, Townsman mwall, but you are WRONG. There is no ethno-cultural purity to the concept of rock and roll. It's not "white" music; it's not "black" music; it's not American; it's not English. It's like the movie/TV industry -- pop culture entertainment developed most aggressively in a nation that empowered its developers to go hog wild with the concept. But once the rest of the world got a taste, they realized their own cultural creations were stuck in an elitist time-warp, and they enthusiastically embraced the lowest-common-denominator freedom rock and roll provided. Now, you may not get the same LCD rise out of rock and roll played in a language or addressing topics you can't understand, but that doesn't make it lousy rock and roll. That's just silly.
2007-05-31 @ 08:07
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
Mr. Mod, I'm kind of surprised at you -- those are some pretty strong ideas you're spouting there. Surely you mean to add the qualifier: "to my American ears" to what you've said...?
2007-05-31 @ 08:33
Comment from: sally_cinnamon [Member]
I think you can be a fan of something without saying it can only be expressed in one way and by one country's musicians to make it authentic or enjoyable - and that it doesn't make you elitist or fake. Artistic license? Plus - maybe what they're singing about is really relevant in the same way that lyrics are to us (when we understand and enjoy them). Even though it might not be relevant to me because I certainly don't speak japanese, I enjoy it because I've been trying to learn japanese forever, and it really makes me smile to see their culture having fun with rock n' roll - even when it's aping something from another decade in the US or england. Last year I heard this band "Spon" with an umlat over the "o" please (means "spun" - terrible name, I know) and I dug their sound enough to interview them. Their lyrics are in Norwegian, and some of them even Max (the person who wrote them) couldn't translate properly into english, but that doesn't make me enjoy their songs any less. There's actually quite a few bands that I enjoy who sing in a different language, half of which I don't understand (SFA, Gorky's) but still enjoy immensely. And I love Shonen Knife!!
2007-05-31 @ 09:02
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
No, Hrrundi, I don't. Here's an analogous belief I've held since the year we lived in Hungary: our government is constantly trying to shove democracy and capitalism - our approved form of it - down the throats of other nations and cultures. My feel is, rather than send troops and drop missiles, airdrop copies of Rousseau, Hobbs, Locke, et al. The French-English-American notion of democracy is a key value in our cultures that was developed and earned through a long history. That's why it works, at least to some extent, for us.
Now let's take rock 'n roll. The English and us share a musical heritage that led up to the development of The Most Self-Important Genre in Our Narrow Lifetimes. Those rhythms are the "walk of life," to cornily quote a Dire Straits song. We're not aping those rhythms; they are in our walk, in the walk of our forefathers. A Hungarian youth, to cite an example I know well, has a thousand-year history of forefathers who place the beat on the 1 and the 3, or the opposite of our natural 2 and 4 rhythm. Similarly, their language places the accent on the first syllable of every word. Their "walk of life" is completely alien to the rhythm of rock 'n roll.
I can't speak for the rhythm of the Japanese and hundreds of other nations, but I do know my Romance languages and their musical traditions and, similarly, they have some impediments to being "cool" in a rock 'n roll sense. We've got James Dean, Bob Dylan, The Beatles, The Stones, and the like remember. There's a European cool, too, of course, but the cool of Marcello Mastrioanni is of a different stripe. (Same goes for the French cool, although they did a little better at aping American cool...)
I know from traveling that you can spot and American or Brit/Australian from a hundred yards away. We don't dress in little "outfits" to look cool; in fact, we often look like complete slobs. We're cool with it. (I'm not speaking of "ugly American" tourists in Hawaiin shirts and golf hats, by the way, but people like "us.") See a big, fair-haired, strapping, healthy guy from a hundred yards away on a European street. If he's got a little "outfit" on, such as a stylish sweatsuit or rock shirt tucked into designer jeans, he's probably German or Austrian or maybe Scandavian (although they're more apt to be cool and blend in). If he's just wearing whatever clothes he pulled out of his drawer that morning, he's likely American, British, Austrailian, or Canadian. In other words, he's equipped to play rock 'n roll the way Lou Reed meant it to be played.
I apologize for the harshness of my honesty throughout this discussion, but it's important that we acknowledge these truths the same way we acknowledge that operas written by Americans suck worse than the real thing, white people have no business making Chinese food, and those of English, Irish, Scottish, and Welsh descent should stay out of the kitchen unless they also include a genealogic link to a nation with a rich history of cooking.
Now let's take rock 'n roll. The English and us share a musical heritage that led up to the development of The Most Self-Important Genre in Our Narrow Lifetimes. Those rhythms are the "walk of life," to cornily quote a Dire Straits song. We're not aping those rhythms; they are in our walk, in the walk of our forefathers. A Hungarian youth, to cite an example I know well, has a thousand-year history of forefathers who place the beat on the 1 and the 3, or the opposite of our natural 2 and 4 rhythm. Similarly, their language places the accent on the first syllable of every word. Their "walk of life" is completely alien to the rhythm of rock 'n roll.
I can't speak for the rhythm of the Japanese and hundreds of other nations, but I do know my Romance languages and their musical traditions and, similarly, they have some impediments to being "cool" in a rock 'n roll sense. We've got James Dean, Bob Dylan, The Beatles, The Stones, and the like remember. There's a European cool, too, of course, but the cool of Marcello Mastrioanni is of a different stripe. (Same goes for the French cool, although they did a little better at aping American cool...)
I know from traveling that you can spot and American or Brit/Australian from a hundred yards away. We don't dress in little "outfits" to look cool; in fact, we often look like complete slobs. We're cool with it. (I'm not speaking of "ugly American" tourists in Hawaiin shirts and golf hats, by the way, but people like "us.") See a big, fair-haired, strapping, healthy guy from a hundred yards away on a European street. If he's got a little "outfit" on, such as a stylish sweatsuit or rock shirt tucked into designer jeans, he's probably German or Austrian or maybe Scandavian (although they're more apt to be cool and blend in). If he's just wearing whatever clothes he pulled out of his drawer that morning, he's likely American, British, Austrailian, or Canadian. In other words, he's equipped to play rock 'n roll the way Lou Reed meant it to be played.
I apologize for the harshness of my honesty throughout this discussion, but it's important that we acknowledge these truths the same way we acknowledge that operas written by Americans suck worse than the real thing, white people have no business making Chinese food, and those of English, Irish, Scottish, and Welsh descent should stay out of the kitchen unless they also include a genealogic link to a nation with a rich history of cooking.
2007-05-31 @ 09:03
Comment from: sally_cinnamon [Member]
I should also mention that I definitely wear the beret being half French, and enjoy a lot of French music as well - half of which I actually CAN and DO understand;)
2007-05-31 @ 09:06
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
Mr Mod said:
Your idea that the US and the UK comprise one culture is bizarre. Since 1964 the two countries have had a fruitful cross-fertilization, but still the US would never produce a band that sounds like The Smiths and the UK would never produce a band that sounds like Pavement. TV, movies, fashion -- all areas where the cultures are still distinct (though perhaps less so that before). Even British rap doesn't sound much like the American variety.
The sound and rhythm of spoken British English is very different from American English, and it has been able to be incorporated into rock music. I don't see why French or Italian or Spanish could not work, and I would not presume to say it couldn't without being a native speaker of those languages.
Now let's take rock 'n roll. The English and us share a musical heritage that led up to the development of The Most Self-Important Genre in Our Narrow Lifetimes.So I assume this means you think history began in 1964? I believe that even in 1964 most Americans were not of English descent and would not have had much exposure to actual British music, and most Britons might have heard jazz or big band music but would hardly have considered it their 'heritage.'
Your idea that the US and the UK comprise one culture is bizarre. Since 1964 the two countries have had a fruitful cross-fertilization, but still the US would never produce a band that sounds like The Smiths and the UK would never produce a band that sounds like Pavement. TV, movies, fashion -- all areas where the cultures are still distinct (though perhaps less so that before). Even British rap doesn't sound much like the American variety.
The sound and rhythm of spoken British English is very different from American English, and it has been able to be incorporated into rock music. I don't see why French or Italian or Spanish could not work, and I would not presume to say it couldn't without being a native speaker of those languages.
2007-05-31 @ 10:02
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
mwall said:
Rock and roll comes from a certain cultural context, and people from that context play rock and roll better. Music from other contexts can be equally amazing, but that music won't be rock and roll.Again, if this argument holds weight, you should be able to apply it equally well to the British Invasion bands.
2007-05-31 @ 10:05
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
A couple of things, BigSteve, as I try to defend a position that few wish to have defended:
1) History started long before 1964, and our musical history that led to rock 'n roll, from all accounts (I never emigrated from Scotland to the Appalachian hills, for instance), comes from blues, folk, and country traditions, the last two of which are British Isles based, right? Our "folk" tradition does not refer to the folk tradition of Hungarians, Japanese, or even Native Americans. I'm saying that if rock 'n roll derived from the mating of black music traditions with the folk traditions of British Isles, er, folks, then there is a shared and significant musical heritage that is handed down to kids in their first nursery songs. A baby raised on Hungarian nursery songs is on the "wrong" beat from the git-go unless he or she can use it to build upon the work of James Brown.
2) It's easy to say "I don't see why French or Italian or Spanish could not work," and it's a sentiment that I share, but the reality is it usually sounds awkward, especially Spanish and Italian. French has plenty of gutteral sounds, which are key to a lot of rock 'n roll songs. Spanish and Italian could possibly work fine in rock songs along the lines of Lieber and Stoller's works for the Drifters or Burt Bacharach's music, which already incorporated Latin traditions.
As I and others try our best to defend this embarrassing and shameful position, I ask that Townspeople who do not share in my views refrain from trying to generalize what I'm saying to completely ridiculous and indefensible statements like "So I assume this means you think history began in 1964?" You know what I'm saying? I'm laying it out for the Hall as Townsman Mwall has also begun to do. Try to show us the true errors of what we're getting at.
1) History started long before 1964, and our musical history that led to rock 'n roll, from all accounts (I never emigrated from Scotland to the Appalachian hills, for instance), comes from blues, folk, and country traditions, the last two of which are British Isles based, right? Our "folk" tradition does not refer to the folk tradition of Hungarians, Japanese, or even Native Americans. I'm saying that if rock 'n roll derived from the mating of black music traditions with the folk traditions of British Isles, er, folks, then there is a shared and significant musical heritage that is handed down to kids in their first nursery songs. A baby raised on Hungarian nursery songs is on the "wrong" beat from the git-go unless he or she can use it to build upon the work of James Brown.
2) It's easy to say "I don't see why French or Italian or Spanish could not work," and it's a sentiment that I share, but the reality is it usually sounds awkward, especially Spanish and Italian. French has plenty of gutteral sounds, which are key to a lot of rock 'n roll songs. Spanish and Italian could possibly work fine in rock songs along the lines of Lieber and Stoller's works for the Drifters or Burt Bacharach's music, which already incorporated Latin traditions.
As I and others try our best to defend this embarrassing and shameful position, I ask that Townspeople who do not share in my views refrain from trying to generalize what I'm saying to completely ridiculous and indefensible statements like "So I assume this means you think history began in 1964?" You know what I'm saying? I'm laying it out for the Hall as Townsman Mwall has also begun to do. Try to show us the true errors of what we're getting at.
2007-05-31 @ 10:25
Comment from: meanstom [Member]
This was a lot easier when we were talking about Matthew Sweet and Lenny Kravitz. Mr. Mod, did you ever consider that the guy in the adidas sweat suit was the cool one and not you?
2007-05-31 @ 10:36
Comment from: general slocum [Member]
But isn't almost all of the British invasion aping particularly music that came from black America? By their own say-so? And didn't Big Mama Thornton and Little Junior feel similarly about Elvis? They had to have heard the music blanch in his versions. Watch Eric Burdon stay out of Otis Redding's way on that Youtube video that made the rounds a while back. It wasn't just a lack of skill or presence that kept his jaw dropped a few feet from the mic! As soon as he uttered a sound, it was clear he was offering a pale imitation of the real deal. What I'm wondering is, why is the position you defend partially abhorent? Is the other half of the elephant in this room the race question? I don't think it's language much at all. I think it's culture. Some languages lend themselves more and less well to a certain brand of rock and roll, but doesn't Spanish work as swimmingly for Los Lobos and Tex-Mex as it does clumsily for Brit-style pop? German works frighteningly well for punk or speed-metal. Uriah Heep should have been singing in Russian! This Japanese guy strikes me as his AmiYumi stuff did. Fine art-house replicas of rock kibbles. He could be singing Tralfalmadorian and it wouldn't matter. The whole thing is through a prism at the wrong angle and distance to resonate with me.
2007-05-31 @ 10:50
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
My point is that the "folk and country traditions [...] which are British Isles based" are not my heritage. My father grew up speaking French and my mother's background was German. Like most people of their generation they assimilated, so I'm not claiming knowledge of those folk traditions either, but the only folk traditions someone my age would have had any knowledge of would have come through TV. I guess I may have seen Hootenanny on TV, but I also saw Borscht Belt comedians and Topo Gigio. It's all a blur.
I think in some parts of the country people stayed connected to their ancestors' folkways. I'm thinking of midwestern polka culture. And if I'd stayed in Cajun country where my dad grew up, I would have had more contact with that scene. As it was, I was raised in the Home of the Blues and the birthplace of rock&roll and didn't find that out till much later.
And I meant to mention this before, but your claim that Americans now naturally clap on 2 and 4 has not been proven to be the case in my experience.
I think in some parts of the country people stayed connected to their ancestors' folkways. I'm thinking of midwestern polka culture. And if I'd stayed in Cajun country where my dad grew up, I would have had more contact with that scene. As it was, I was raised in the Home of the Blues and the birthplace of rock&roll and didn't find that out till much later.
And I meant to mention this before, but your claim that Americans now naturally clap on 2 and 4 has not been proven to be the case in my experience.
2007-05-31 @ 10:55
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
General Slocum wrote:
Well, I referred to culture from the start, the whole "walk of life"/airdrop Rousseau business, so yes, I agree with you here. What I find uncomfortable in making this claim is the xenophobic aspect of it. I generally try to steer clear of these beliefs, or at least admissions of holding them. You make a great point about Spanish working swimmingly for Tex-Mex music. Bravo. You also make the right point about this Okuda guy and his work for Puffy Amiyumi. I consider your response the most reasonable sign of progress in this aspect of the discussion since something I posted earlier. Thank you.
...What I'm wondering is, why is the position you defend partially abhorent? Is the other half of the elephant in this room the race question? I don't think it's language much at all. I think it's culture. Some languages lend themselves more and less well to a certain brand of rock and roll, but doesn't Spanish work as swimmingly for Los Lobos and Tex-Mex as it does clumsily for Brit-style pop?...
Well, I referred to culture from the start, the whole "walk of life"/airdrop Rousseau business, so yes, I agree with you here. What I find uncomfortable in making this claim is the xenophobic aspect of it. I generally try to steer clear of these beliefs, or at least admissions of holding them. You make a great point about Spanish working swimmingly for Tex-Mex music. Bravo. You also make the right point about this Okuda guy and his work for Puffy Amiyumi. I consider your response the most reasonable sign of progress in this aspect of the discussion since something I posted earlier. Thank you.
2007-05-31 @ 10:59
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Hey, I didn't say Americans naturally clap on 2 and 4 but that they should be clapping along with their American and British musicians on those beats! Otherwise fine points. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm beginning to feel The General's favorite RTH feeling (that's right, it rhymes with "feeling")!
2007-05-31 @ 11:02
Comment from: sally_cinnamon [Member]
I love Topo Gigio!!! My mum always said his name to crack us up, like "ToPOOO GIIIgiiiooo!"
2007-05-31 @ 11:05
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
Mr. Mod said:
2) It's easy to say "I don't see why French or Italian or Spanish could not work," and it's a sentiment that I share, but the reality is it usually sounds awkward, especially Spanish and Italian. French has plenty of gutteral sounds, which are key to a lot of rock 'n roll songs. Spanish and Italian could possibly work fine in rock songs along the lines of Lieber and Stoller's works for the Drifters or Burt Bacharach's music, which already incorporated Latin traditions.
I say: this couldn't be simpler. Look, until you've been a Spanish/French/Italian/Pakistani person who lives his life through his native language, you have no idea how well the language works for rock and roll. Now, if you'd care to add the phrase: "to my American ears..." to most of your opinions, I'd have no problem with them whatsoever.
This may be the first time I've found your opinions on something indefensible (I don't mean that in a "morally indefensible" kind of way, BTW).
2) It's easy to say "I don't see why French or Italian or Spanish could not work," and it's a sentiment that I share, but the reality is it usually sounds awkward, especially Spanish and Italian. French has plenty of gutteral sounds, which are key to a lot of rock 'n roll songs. Spanish and Italian could possibly work fine in rock songs along the lines of Lieber and Stoller's works for the Drifters or Burt Bacharach's music, which already incorporated Latin traditions.
I say: this couldn't be simpler. Look, until you've been a Spanish/French/Italian/Pakistani person who lives his life through his native language, you have no idea how well the language works for rock and roll. Now, if you'd care to add the phrase: "to my American ears..." to most of your opinions, I'd have no problem with them whatsoever.
This may be the first time I've found your opinions on something indefensible (I don't mean that in a "morally indefensible" kind of way, BTW).
2007-05-31 @ 11:09
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
The general's point about Los Lobos reminded me that Clifton Chenier's zydeco was really just R&B with French lyrics and lead accordion (some forms of zydeco are more creolized). And Chenier's records rock as hard as almost any I know of. I may have mentioned this before, but the time I saw Beau Jocque play at a bowling alley, his zydeco sounded like the murkier and bluesier parts of Exile on Main St., and he sang mostly in French.
2007-05-31 @ 11:18
Comment from: sally_cinnamon [Member]
BigSteve, that sounds like a supreme show experience! In Detroit, The upstairs of the Magic Stick used to have a bowling alley, but they took it out to put in pool tables instead, sadly. But there are still bowling lanes downstairs that you can hear during a bit during a show, where they have bands play and a bar as well as a restaurant and another part of the venue yet. What would you recommend of the music of Beau Jocque or Chenier? I'm interested!
http://www.majesticdetroit.com/stick.asp
http://www.majesticdetroit.com/stick.asp
2007-05-31 @ 11:26
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Townsman Hrruni wrote:
I'd love to be able to add the "to my American ears..." phrase, my friend, but it would be insincere. The key phrase that's implied is "to my rock 'n roll ears." I am confident in the degree to which I have a "rock 'n roll heart," to quote one of my least-favorite Lou Reed songs, a song I find so bad I can't even defend as an example of the man's comfort with his own badness. I'm sorry that you find the point I'm trying to make indefensible, and I can understand why you might feel that way. I would like to simply say, "Trust me," but I know that's futile.
Let me put it this way, to get back to one of my other great loves, food: A friend who's from a non-Italian family that doesn't have much skills in the kitchen says to me, "But Mr. Mod, until you've tasted Chef Boyardee ravioli through my tongue, how can you judge the worthiness of the Chef's cooking?" I say, as someone whose maternal side is of Italian descent and has passed down a tremendous tradition of great cooking, I can.
I say: this couldn't be simpler. Look, until you've been a Spanish/French/Italian/Pakistani person who lives his life through his native language, you have no idea how well the language works for rock and roll. Now, if you'd care to add the phrase: "to my American ears..." to most of your opinions, I'd have no problem with them whatsoever.
This may be the first time I've found your opinions on something indefensible (I don't mean that in a "morally indefensible" kind of way, BTW).
I'd love to be able to add the "to my American ears..." phrase, my friend, but it would be insincere. The key phrase that's implied is "to my rock 'n roll ears." I am confident in the degree to which I have a "rock 'n roll heart," to quote one of my least-favorite Lou Reed songs, a song I find so bad I can't even defend as an example of the man's comfort with his own badness. I'm sorry that you find the point I'm trying to make indefensible, and I can understand why you might feel that way. I would like to simply say, "Trust me," but I know that's futile.
Let me put it this way, to get back to one of my other great loves, food: A friend who's from a non-Italian family that doesn't have much skills in the kitchen says to me, "But Mr. Mod, until you've tasted Chef Boyardee ravioli through my tongue, how can you judge the worthiness of the Chef's cooking?" I say, as someone whose maternal side is of Italian descent and has passed down a tremendous tradition of great cooking, I can.
2007-05-31 @ 11:27
Comment from: mwall [Member]
mwall said:
BigSteve said:
Sure, I think I can. American and British culture have a lot in common, obviously, since British culture was central to the development of American culture, and white American folk music has mainly British roots. So the translation of rock and roll back to England isn't that far of a reach--it's pretty much like lobbing a ball back and forth across a pretty low net.
The connection between Black African music and rock and roll is definite too, for the same reason. The collaborations between Cooder and Toure show this, for instance.
But for Asian and Arabic cultures, for instance, it's more of a stretch. And the definite differences between French culture and British culture are one of the reasons that rock and roll has never developed convincingly in France.
Japanese culture has a well known history of borrowing the surface forms of other cultures while oddly changing their content, both intentionally and unintentionally. Okuda and Mandom are both part of this pheomena, pretty clearly.
Rock and roll comes from a certain cultural context, and people from that context play rock and roll better. Music from other contexts can be equally amazing, but that music won't be rock and roll.
BigSteve said:
Again, if this argument holds weight, you should be able to apply it equally well to the British Invasion bands.
Sure, I think I can. American and British culture have a lot in common, obviously, since British culture was central to the development of American culture, and white American folk music has mainly British roots. So the translation of rock and roll back to England isn't that far of a reach--it's pretty much like lobbing a ball back and forth across a pretty low net.
The connection between Black African music and rock and roll is definite too, for the same reason. The collaborations between Cooder and Toure show this, for instance.
But for Asian and Arabic cultures, for instance, it's more of a stretch. And the definite differences between French culture and British culture are one of the reasons that rock and roll has never developed convincingly in France.
Japanese culture has a well known history of borrowing the surface forms of other cultures while oddly changing their content, both intentionally and unintentionally. Okuda and Mandom are both part of this pheomena, pretty clearly.
2007-05-31 @ 11:50
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
mwall said:
American and British culture have a lot in common, obviously, since British culture was central to the development of American culture, and white American folk music has mainly British roots.See, this is what I have a problem with. There's lots of white (definition?) American folk music that doesn't have British roots. People of English descent make up a minority in the US. I think it's been a very long time since "British culture was central to the development of American culture."
2007-05-31 @ 12:34
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Come on, people, I think Mwall's tie-in of Okuda and Mandom settles this issue!
2007-05-31 @ 12:39
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
mwall wrote:
Japanese culture has a well known history of borrowing the surface forms of other cultures while oddly changing their content, both intentionally and unintentionally.This seems to me to describe pretty much what the Rolling Stones did.
2007-05-31 @ 12:49
Comment from: mwall [Member]
See, this is what I have a problem with. There's lots of white (definition?) American folk music that doesn't have British roots. People of English descent make up a minority in the US. I think it's been a very long time since "British culture was central to the development of American culture."
I'm not suggesting that American culture has only British roots; that would be foolish, although our form of government clearly was developed through a British lineage. But it would be equally a mistake to try to deny that the U.S. and the British Isles have a long and deeply interconnected set of influences. The most broadly known American folk and country music is clearly closer to Irish music than to German or Polish music. It's true that the American polka exists, but it wasn't a key player in the development of rock and roll, which in its most basic roots comes from the interconnection between Anglo culture and African-American culture in the American Appalachias and the southern U.S. Eastern Europeans tended to settle more in the more northern parts of America, and to interact with black culture less until much later.
What the British must have heard in rock and roll was something not too unlike what they already understood their own music to be, and so it was easier for them to take it up. Their spoken emphasis on the black portion of American music has to do with what was really thrilling to them. They heard their own culture in the music, but with this different element that they'd not heard before and were eager to take advantage of.
And of course British rock and roll doesn't sound like American rock and roll, so they took something and changed it again.
To insist that cultural histories are real, by the way, is hardly doing something that's socially backwards or wrong. The idea, for instance, that American TV and music has been taken up the same way by people everywhere in some democratic fashion, or even could be taken up in that way, is mainly American wishful thinking.
2007-05-31 @ 13:02
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
What would you recommend of the music of Beau Jocque or Chenier? I'm interested!For Chenier, the album called Bogalusa Boogie is usually the single album people recommend, but Rhino (as usual) has an excellent 2-CD comp called Zydeco Dynamite: The Clifton Chenier Anthology, which I highly recommend.
I'm afraid I can't give any recommendations on Beau Jocque. I always heard that his albums didn't capture his performances, though I see now he does have some live albums. He died (of a heart attack in his late 40s) shortly after I saw him. In fact that night I was raving about how it was the greatest thing I had ever heard, but the Yankee friends I'd brought along with me thought it was loud and crude (yeah!) and it hurt their ears, and they made me leave, for which I still give them grief.
Someone here, I forget who, is a zydeco aficianado, much more than me, and maybe he has recommendations.
Btw the venue in question is called Rock and Bowl (formerly Mid City Lanes). The dancefloor and bandstand are on the same floor as the lanes, and people bowl throughout the performances, admittedly not the best acoustic environment. It's on the second floor of a shopping center, so it escaped flood damage. http://www.rockandbowl.com/Historypage/history.html
2007-05-31 @ 13:09
Comment from: mwall [Member]
mwall wrote:
Japanese culture has a well known history of borrowing the surface forms of other cultures while oddly changing their content, both intentionally and unintentionally.
BigSteve wrote:
This seems to me to describe pretty much what the Rolling Stones did.
And mwall says:
The distinction would be in the degree of cultural difference involved. One of the reasons the Mandom commercial is funny, for instance, is that British and American gestures of working class manly toughness don't include throwing your shirt in the air and opening out your arms and doing a pirouette.
Japanese culture has a well known history of borrowing the surface forms of other cultures while oddly changing their content, both intentionally and unintentionally.
BigSteve wrote:
This seems to me to describe pretty much what the Rolling Stones did.
And mwall says:
The distinction would be in the degree of cultural difference involved. One of the reasons the Mandom commercial is funny, for instance, is that British and American gestures of working class manly toughness don't include throwing your shirt in the air and opening out your arms and doing a pirouette.
2007-05-31 @ 13:10
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
Slocum says:
"The whole thing is through a prism at the wrong angle and distance to resonate with me."
And that's exactly where I stand as well. Know that I also took another look at the photo of the clod. Bad look. REAL bad look. The Fonzie thang just doesn't work for the Japanese. And for that matter, the whole idea of "cool" is nonexistent in their culture, with the sole exception of Bruce Lee. He is, perhaps, the only example of Japanese popular culture cool that truly succeeds.
Talk to ya soon,
E. Pluribus
"The whole thing is through a prism at the wrong angle and distance to resonate with me."
And that's exactly where I stand as well. Know that I also took another look at the photo of the clod. Bad look. REAL bad look. The Fonzie thang just doesn't work for the Japanese. And for that matter, the whole idea of "cool" is nonexistent in their culture, with the sole exception of Bruce Lee. He is, perhaps, the only example of Japanese popular culture cool that truly succeeds.
Talk to ya soon,
E. Pluribus
2007-05-31 @ 16:34
Comment from: the great 48 [Member]
Who wants to tell Plurb that Bruce Lee was a Chinese-American from San Francisco?
2007-05-31 @ 17:28
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
Thanks for the info. I stand corrected.
Taking that into consideration, I can now safely say the idea of "cool" is completely non-existent in Japanese culture.
Yours,
E. Pluribus
Taking that into consideration, I can now safely say the idea of "cool" is completely non-existent in Japanese culture.
Yours,
E. Pluribus
2007-05-31 @ 17:47
Comment from: the great 48 [Member]
There's a quite good documentary about the inability of Japanese society to truly incorporate American-style "cool," called GODSPEED YOU! BLACK EMPEROR. (Yes, it's where the Canadian band got their name.) Basically, it's about a Tokyo motorcycle gang called the Black Emperors whose attempts to be badass-cool are repeatedly undercut by the camera capturing the teenage hoodlums hanging out with their younger siblings, asking their parents to bail them out of trouble with the law and otherwise being complete pantywaists about the idea of actually doing anything too rebellious. My friend Brad's video store back in Albuquerque had a VHS copy, but I don't know how easy it is to find overall.
2007-05-31 @ 18:20
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
I think the cultural distance between Howlin' Wolf, who grew up on a plantation in Mississippi, and the Rolling Stones, who grew up in the suburbs of London, might be greater than the distance between contemporary rockers in Tokyo and iNew York of LA. Which is why Okuda's songs sound more convincing to me than the Stones' early version of Little Red Rooster.
I've never seen a Bruce Lee movie, but Toshiro Mifune was pretty fucking cool in those Kurosawa films.
If you simply define cool as 'acting like an American' and if you define rock&roll as 'sounding like a British or American musician' then this whole discussion becomes meaningless.
Was Marlon Brando cool in Teahouse of the August Moon? Charlie Chan? Aping the surface characteristics of other cultures cuts both ways, no?
I've never seen a Bruce Lee movie, but Toshiro Mifune was pretty fucking cool in those Kurosawa films.
If you simply define cool as 'acting like an American' and if you define rock&roll as 'sounding like a British or American musician' then this whole discussion becomes meaningless.
Was Marlon Brando cool in Teahouse of the August Moon? Charlie Chan? Aping the surface characteristics of other cultures cuts both ways, no?
2007-05-31 @ 19:52
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
BigSteve: all I gotta say is WOO-HOO! You are on *fire*, you bad-ass muthafucka you. Every word in your last post was right ON. Plurbie, you been slapped down *hard*, bwah.
And, Plurbie -- beyond the Mifune flicks BigSteve mentions -- you should check out "Beat" Takeshi's gangster movie "Aniki" to experience a double-barrelled blast of modern Japanese cool. The movie is for shit, but Beat is a *serious* bad-ass.
Japanese people can't be "cool" -- such utter horseshit!
Does the fact that you were born and raised in Fuckin' Carlisle, Pee-A have something to do with this xenophobia of yours? I need to know!
Worried about you,
FS
And, Plurbie -- beyond the Mifune flicks BigSteve mentions -- you should check out "Beat" Takeshi's gangster movie "Aniki" to experience a double-barrelled blast of modern Japanese cool. The movie is for shit, but Beat is a *serious* bad-ass.
Japanese people can't be "cool" -- such utter horseshit!
Does the fact that you were born and raised in Fuckin' Carlisle, Pee-A have something to do with this xenophobia of yours? I need to know!
Worried about you,
FS
2007-05-31 @ 21:27
Comment from: general slocum [Member]
I will go to the mat for Charlie Chan, Steve. Even though the actor who portrayed him was a Swede or some such, the Earl Derr Biggers novels, as well as the first films, do a fair ammount to comment on, and decry, anti-Chinese sentiment and patronising stereotypes. I've just gone through a spate of watching a bunch of the DVDs borrowed from my in-laws, and read a few of the novels. Fun stuff. Apparently Chan is seen as quite a cultural hero among a lot of Asian-Americans, at least of a certain age. Now Mr. Moto, with Peter Lorre - THERE's some cheezy aping for you!
2007-05-31 @ 21:49
Comment from: mwall [Member]
I think the cultural distance between Howlin' Wolf, who grew up on a plantation in Mississippi, and the Rolling Stones, who grew up in the suburbs of London, might be greater than the distance between contemporary rockers in Tokyo and iNew York of LA. Which is why Okuda's songs sound more convincing to me than the Stones' early version of Little Red Rooster.
Steve, you're being more than a little obtuse (purposefully?) here. Howlin' Wolf was hardly the major influence on the Stones--the Stones are a white British rock band when they start out, who,use the idea of the blues as a way of distinguishing themselves from the white rock competition--the Beatles in England, the Beach Boys and the fading previous generation of rockers in America. But they're not a blues band, right? I mean, I thought you were one of the people on this list who actually knew what the blues was. Take on a real comparison, please. Do you think the Beach Boys, Buddy Holly, Roy Orbison and the Stones have some things in common? And do you think that Okuda's rock and roll songs are as good as, say, "Satisfaction" or "Gimme Shelter?"
2007-05-31 @ 23:26
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Mwall wrote:
Are you asking that question with West Coast or East Coast ears?:) I'm with you all the way, Townsman! Is any non-English language rock song, for that matter, as good as "Satisfaction" or "Gimme Shelter"? Let's go, folks: you've got 24 hours to name one.
And do you think that Okuda's rock and roll songs are as good as, say, "Satisfaction" or "Gimme Shelter?"
Are you asking that question with West Coast or East Coast ears?:) I'm with you all the way, Townsman! Is any non-English language rock song, for that matter, as good as "Satisfaction" or "Gimme Shelter"? Let's go, folks: you've got 24 hours to name one.
2007-05-31 @ 23:46
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
Am I missing something or did the Stones not record Wolf's Little Red Rooster in 1965? Were they not named after a Muddy Waters song? No, they're not "a blues band" exactly. I was questioning the concept that Britons and Americans shared a single culture.
Yes, the artists you mention have some things in common. They have some things in common with Okuda and with the Boredoms as well.
The answer to your last question is no, but then again in my opinion no one anywhere has ever made a record as good Gimme Shelter. I never claimed Okuda's records were that good. I was objecting to the concept that it was impossible for him to make rock music that was acceptable or even to make music that was rock music.
Yes, the artists you mention have some things in common. They have some things in common with Okuda and with the Boredoms as well.
The answer to your last question is no, but then again in my opinion no one anywhere has ever made a record as good Gimme Shelter. I never claimed Okuda's records were that good. I was objecting to the concept that it was impossible for him to make rock music that was acceptable or even to make music that was rock music.
2007-06-01 @ 00:10
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
Jim, how about Iko Iko by the Dixiecups? Talking Heads' I Zimbra?
2007-06-01 @ 00:18
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Good enough songs, BigSteve (same goes for "La Bamba", which I meant to exclude based on some lame rationale), but not quite. It does help that the nonsense languages used in the songs you cite are harsh and rich in consonants.
2007-06-01 @ 00:21
Comment from: Oats [Member]
How about "Ca Plane Pour Moi"? Good as those Stones songs, maybe not. But possibly as good as many punk-era singles.
2007-06-01 @ 07:42
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Nice effort as well, Oats, but time's a tickin'...
2007-06-01 @ 09:08
Comment from: mwall [Member]
I was objecting to the concept that it was impossible for him to make rock music that was acceptable or even to make music that was rock music.
I'm in agreement with you on this one, Steve. Okuda's records are certainly rock music, and certainly acceptable rock music. The first question, I suppose, is to analyze his efforts in comparison to other Japanese rock music; what, for instance, are the aesthetics of Japanese rock? Does Okuda stand out, or is he just one of the pack? And then perhaps to compare it to other Japanese pop music, rock and otherwise; how does he fit in there? Lastly, if his music is a hybrid form, is it fitting the structures of rock to a Japanese context in a way that seems successful either to Japanese ears or to the ears of those beyond Japan? Does anyone know who Okuda's audience is? I'm genuinely asking.
2007-06-01 @ 10:24
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
uhh...as the one who interrupted the love fest for this guy first, i'd like to chime in, albeit belatedly.
i don't think he's lame because he's japanese, and therefore somehow genetically incapable of being cool, or rocking. i just don't like listening to his music.
his voice isn't clumsy sounding because of the language he's singing. it's clumsy sounding because he pushes way too much air thorugh his esophagus at the wrong times and with little control or subtlety. i don't like hearing that.
the production is generic, the arrangements are pedestrian.
if anything, people give him a free pass because he's japanese and the have some kind of fetish for japanese culture (and in my experience, these people tend to be the first ones to accuse people who dislike his music of prejudging it. not you, fritz, i know you really like this stuff, i'm talking about others, not on this list, who were convinced that i didn't like this stuff because he's japanese, even as we traded guitar wolf and LSD march cds...go figure).
and as far as these nationalist issues are concerned, i couldn't give a hoot. my ears and my body tell me what i like before i ever look at a map or think in historical terms. it could be blues made by english boys, or traditional japanese music played by hobbits from middle earth, or classical music played by martians, for all i care. if it moves me, it moves me. we live in a global world. the trade of goods, ideas, religions, philosophies, art, AND music has been happening for centuries. cultures take on different colors as a result and are alternately the better or the worse for it, depending on the particular example.
btw, i have several friends who have lived in japan, some for as many as 5 years, and according to them, okuda's audience is pretty much the japanese equivalent of the soccer mom...the mainstream. that's why i said he's like taylor hicks or something.
i don't think he's lame because he's japanese, and therefore somehow genetically incapable of being cool, or rocking. i just don't like listening to his music.
his voice isn't clumsy sounding because of the language he's singing. it's clumsy sounding because he pushes way too much air thorugh his esophagus at the wrong times and with little control or subtlety. i don't like hearing that.
the production is generic, the arrangements are pedestrian.
if anything, people give him a free pass because he's japanese and the have some kind of fetish for japanese culture (and in my experience, these people tend to be the first ones to accuse people who dislike his music of prejudging it. not you, fritz, i know you really like this stuff, i'm talking about others, not on this list, who were convinced that i didn't like this stuff because he's japanese, even as we traded guitar wolf and LSD march cds...go figure).
and as far as these nationalist issues are concerned, i couldn't give a hoot. my ears and my body tell me what i like before i ever look at a map or think in historical terms. it could be blues made by english boys, or traditional japanese music played by hobbits from middle earth, or classical music played by martians, for all i care. if it moves me, it moves me. we live in a global world. the trade of goods, ideas, religions, philosophies, art, AND music has been happening for centuries. cultures take on different colors as a result and are alternately the better or the worse for it, depending on the particular example.
btw, i have several friends who have lived in japan, some for as many as 5 years, and according to them, okuda's audience is pretty much the japanese equivalent of the soccer mom...the mainstream. that's why i said he's like taylor hicks or something.
2007-06-01 @ 16:11
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
Hrundi says,
"It satisfied all my deepest, darkest prock urges, delivering a song that sounded like Badfinger, Wings, XTC, and all the best Jeff Lynne hook-craft one could wish for."
Honestly, how good is the stuff gonna be if your taste mechanism goes bonkers at the sight and smell of processed cheese? Look, my man, shit is shit no matter where you're born and raised.
Talk to ya soon!
E. Pluribus
"It satisfied all my deepest, darkest prock urges, delivering a song that sounded like Badfinger, Wings, XTC, and all the best Jeff Lynne hook-craft one could wish for."
Honestly, how good is the stuff gonna be if your taste mechanism goes bonkers at the sight and smell of processed cheese? Look, my man, shit is shit no matter where you're born and raised.
Talk to ya soon!
E. Pluribus
2007-06-01 @ 17:51
Comment from: mwall [Member]
we live in a global world. the trade of goods, ideas, religions, philosophies, art, AND music has been happening for centuries. cultures take on different colors as a result and are alternately the better or the worse for it, depending on the particular example.
Saturnismine claims to have truly Planetary Ears. Not surprising, given his moniker and its stated desire for Intergalactic Conquest. But the rebels of Saturn, with their Ears To The Ground, do they believe that he truly understands their music? War is next, I'm afraid. War.
2007-06-01 @ 17:58
Comment from: mwall [Member]
Ah, just playing around mainly. But it probably does take awhile to get used to music from different contexts; what's good about it or not might not always be immediately apparent. I didn't like the Okuda much either, so I wanted to see if someone could tel