It was really tough getting tonight's content up and published with that video in the back of my mind. I don't recall that one, which is a good thing for reasons I won't get into.

I disagree with your post on many levels, but I'm fascinated with it and intrigued by the way you express what you have to express. I think you've left out a few key contributors - and you're totally wrong about the merits of side 1 of Marquee Moon - but I like some of the shots you take at "pinheads," for example.

I'm sure I could come up with an additional 10 winners from that scene, but I know your post was directed at Sammy. I will resist from stealing his thunder.

Nice work; great video.

I would agree that nothing came out of that scene (or possibly any other scene) that matched the majesty of the two Beatle's tunes that apparently only you and I appreciate.

Given that- I'd drop Hardest Part from your list and substitute Rip Her To Shreds (possibly my favorite Blondie tune.) Hardest Part feels like a by-the-numbers pop-punk thing.

In addition to Marquee Moon, I'd also include the first 3 tracks on that disc as some of the best out of the scene.

I would include most any single example of a Ramone's tune from that era. Take your pick.

And, you're talking to a pretty big Talking Head's fan, so from their first two albums:

The Book I Read
Thank You For Sending Me An Angel
Artist's Only
I'm Not In Love
Stay Hungry
The Big Country

That's 10 plus the 5 out of 6 of yours I'm down with for a total of 15.

What do I win?

I was gonna write something downright hilarious involving ZZ Top, your incomprehensible fetish for Blondie, and Y-front underpants, but instead I'll just ask, sincerely: is there no song in the Ramones' ouvre that you enjoy? I'll admit that I'm not sure I could even sit through a single greatest hits LP of theirs, but surely there are some uncontestable winners that would lessen the rock canon by their absence. Off the top of my head, there's the obvious choice of "I Wanna Be Sedated," which is solid and iconic. And you gotta hand it to the producers of those early Ramones LPs -- that's a pretty balls-out blast of sound they got out of the band.

After sleeping on it I'd like to add that the underlying point of your post makes a sound point.

CBGBs impact was more in espousing an ethos than actually pumping out mountains of great tunes. Even more true if you assume (and Nez me someone if I'm wrong) that much of the lasting music from the scene was likely written before it was ever played on that stage.

To judge

anyone making a noise in or anywhere near CBGBs

solely on the musical value of the individual tracks though misses the point. The whole was greater than the sum of its parts.

And the impact of the scene is undeniable. Without CBGBs, would we have The Clash?

Sammy wrote:

And the impact of the scene is undeniable. Without CBGBs, would we have The Clash?

This touches on perhaps the most egregious hole in Eplurbie's tastes: his dismissal of the music of The Clash. Thankfully, we avoid that subject like the plague, because lord knows our friendship has enough bumps in the road, but the day may come when I need to grill him on it. Somehow they mustn't meet that "gold standard" of Herman's Hermits' Greatest Hits.

Me, upon hearing the someone does not like The Clash.

Maudlin,

You're my new blood brother. I think you and I have that "growin' up in a small town" thing goin' on. Know what's great about growin' up in one of those holes? It's hard to get a hold of interesting stuff, and once you do miraculously get a hold of something good, you study it exhaustively. One's taste mechanism becomes finely tuned. . . .I'll never forget the time I came up to Philadelphia to hang out with my sister and her college buddies and "Message of Love" by the Pretenders was actually playing on the radio. I thought I was in heaven. Me and my gang NEVER heard anything like that on radio.

I'm glad you saw my point about the actual sound that came from the scene. I don't deny its influential power. One of my favorite books is Clinton Heylin's "From the Velvets to the Voidoids". It's a supreme page turner. Reading and acknowledging the scene's power is one thing. Listening to its art is another. The same can be said for the 50s beat scene. Ever read Jack's Book by Barry Gifford? I'll take that read over any of the actual "creative writing" from the entire beat scene in a heartbeat.

Concerning the Ramones, I grant they were highly influential. That said, I think the music blows. I can't relate to any of it. One's love of American International/early Universal Horror movies/comic books/ and rock rock and roll should never be blended together in a mixing pot. The Cramps, the Ramones, Kiss -all awful, though I give the Ramones a thumbs up for kickstarting the English thing.

One more thing. I don't hate the Clash. London Calling still holds up, and that's somewhat miraculous considering the fact that melody was never one of their strong points. Stummer's epileptic attack vocal was always a hindrance for me as well, but I couldn't deny the power of his lyrics, which are especially strong on that outing.

Mr. Moderator- Please do tell us of your beef with this video. In watching it thru just now, thrice, I believe it to be near perfect. So much so that I'd like to add Hardest Part back to my list.

I couldn't be more serious.

Maudlin,

C'mon, man. Don't give me that crying Indian jazz. To be fair, I'll throw "Groovy Times" and "I Fought the Law" into my bucket of winners as well. And this is gonna hurt, but I removed "Stay Free" from the bucket a month or so ago. Too long.

Tell me. What am I missing? What deserves another spin?

Hope to hear from you soon,
E. Pluribus

e wrote:

From what I can gather, the only good thing about the New York Punk Scene is that it influenced a whole slew of Brits who churned out loads of dynamite, well=balanced records.

I feel like a right wing talk show host: why do you hate America?

Perhaps I take the more "orthodox" view on this subject, but speaking for myself personally, I love the '70s CBGBs/NYC proto-punk thing and I think that it produced lots of great records. Here's a partial list:
any Ramones album from that era
Patti Smith's 1st 4 albums
The Dictators' 1st 3 albums
Television's 1st 2 albums
Dead Boys Young, Loud and Snotty
any of the 1st 4 Talking Heads albums (though I admit that I'm more partial to Fear of Music and Remain in Light, which bore the influence of Eno as well as lots of other elements not traditionally affiliated with CBs like Afrobeat and what not and by that point they were long past playing CBs of course; what was great about it was that every band sounded different, though)

Hell, I even like the Tuff Darts album!

That doesn't even teach stuff on the periphery like Alex Chilton's "Bangkok" single or The Cramps' Gravest Hits EP, which I believe was recorded when they were still living in New York and playing CBs often.

A couple of things...

E, sorry if I mischaracterized your feelings on The Clash. What you have to say is perfectly acceptable. Based on where you grew up, your background, and your generally pleasant nature, I can see why Strummer grates on your nerves. You do like enough key things about them, so we're cool on that front.

Sammy, sorry if I mischaracterized my feelings on that Blondie video. The reason it's a good thing I don't recall seeing that video in high school is that I would have been even more distracted by my unfulfilled sexual urges. It was hard enough having that thing a click away as I edited content last night. My apologies for the unintended pun.

One question remains from watching that video this morning: What is that blue, speckled guitar that Chris Stein is playing? Hrrundi?

Oh and "The Hardest Part" should DEFINITELY be left in! That's always been one of my favorite Blondie songs, along with "Union City Blue" and "Shayla" from that same, great, underrated Blondie album Eat to the Beat. Oh and I'm down with the 1st 4 Blondie records as well with either the 1st album or Parallel Lines being my favorite and Plastic Letters as my least favorite of those. With that said, Plastic Letters has one of my favorite album covers ever. I can't believe I forgot to mention it when we had that debate.

Tell me. What am I missing? What deserves another spin?

Let's not spoil our newfound blood-brotherhood. The crying Indian has spoken volumes with that one tiny tear.

Matt wrote:

any Ramones album from that era

That would get me a half dozen good songs.

Patti Smith's 1st 4 albums

I'm figuring another 5 winners.

The Dictators' 1st 3 albums

One quarter of a good song.

Television's 1st 2 albums

No qualms with the first album; 2 good songs from the second one.

Dead Boys Young, Loud and Snotty

Among the worst bands I was supposed to like EVER! That Stiv Bators guy was rock's ultimate no-talent, 87th-rate Jagger. Yuk!

Nevertheless, there's way more than 10 great recordings out of the NY punk scene right there!

Epluribus, what's strangest about your post is the thing about Marquee Moon lacking bottom. That album's got plenty of bottom end, and bassist Fred Smith knew wahat to do with it.

Big Steve,

I love America and will always defend her art when necessary. Case in point occurred about 20 years ago when I was at a party at one of the Oxford Colleges (my brother Brim went to one of them for a semester). I verbally assaulted a whole room of arrogant academics who did nothing but belittle America's contributions to the entertainment industry. In a very drunken rant, I loudly explained to all that the only reason any Brit could do anything artistically worthwhile is that they borrowed heavily form the American idea of making your point concisely and creatively as possible. One ass took a few pokes at Chuck Berry, and I actually threw a can of beer at his head. And that says a lot considering my grandmother has more muscle than myself. I need not be told I'm anti-American. I'm more American than the Weekly World's Ed Anger.

God bless you and the horse you rode in on,

E. Pluribus

sorry if I mischaracterized my feelings on that Blondie video.

Apology accepted.

Matt,

I've gotta run. I gotta check out a record collection. As soon as I get back, I'll check in with ya. You made a noble effort in your defense of the scene. That said, I'll be looking forward to tearing you a new asshole when I get back.

Talk to ya soon!
E. Pluribus

What is that blue, speckled guitar

Is there a guitar in that video? I've watched it a dozen times now and have yet to see a guitar.

e wrote:

...the American idea of making your point concisely and creatively as possible.

I can't see how this is a quintessentially American idea, otherwise there would be no Moby Dick or Leaves of Grass.

The brevity of pop records is the result of the limitations imposed by 78s and then 45s. Once LPs and CDs arrived, musicians were free to play longer or shorter pieces, as the spirit moved them. Conciseness has to be pretty far down on the list of what Brits took from American music. It's not as though British pop songs were 20 minutes long before they heard Chuck Berry.

Mr. Mod -- that guitar is a Goya Hagstrom. More at http://goyaguitars.tripod.com/brown.htm.

As a dyed-in-the-wool Hagstrom fan (and proud owner of a '71 Hagstrom Swede), it pleases me that you find this guitar noteworthy!

HVB

Awesome. Thanks, Hrrundi. Tell me, would the music of Eliminator have been improved had Billy Gibbons switched over to a Hagstrom, and more importantly, how does the NY punk scene strike you? You're a curious sort, if I'm not mistaken, who loves UK punk and his share of American underground stuff from the early '80s, but you may not like the US stuff that led up to both scenes. Do I read you wrong?

New York Punk -- I'm a fan. Eplurb, do you, like Mr. Mod, place a high premium on "driving bass parts"? I don't. And anyway, the bottom end on Television and Talking Heads records is fine with me.

As for the pretentious-people charge, I am all for different types of people having a go at the rock arena. Is the issue that these are people you wouldn't be able to stand in a social forum? I personally don't require it. I think it's as flimsy a reason for rock heroes as it is for voting for president.

Finally, Blondie were indeed an amazing singles band (can't believe no one's mentioned "Atomic" yet), but their albums blow. Lotsa genre exercises and other crapola.

Yeah, in general, you can count me as a member of Team Plurbie when it comes to the early NYC punk scene. Patti Smith leaves me cold, the Ramones are one C-45 away from irrelevance, Television is too arty by far, the New York Dolls are a bunch of asscracks the rock critic types love to sniff, and the Dictators are good for one song -- maybe.

I don't really know why the CBGBs thing makes me shrug my shoulders and/or flee the listening room -- I may just be having issues with the whole attitude of the thing.

WRT Billy Gibbons and the Goya Hagstrom: Billy's problems were a lot more serious than gear choice back in the "Eliminator" days. Listen to "Deguello" or "El Loco" to hear the Rev. Billy G making *good* use of unusual sounds and tones. I don't know what happened to his ears between El Loco and "Eliminator," but whatever it was was a Very Bad Thing indeed. It's like his imagination, or his sense of curiosity, about all the cool sounds one could make with a guitar, an amp and a bunch of stompboxes was supplanted with a specific desire to establish a truly MONOLITHIC sound.

Speaking of monolithic sounds: I just got a call from my crazy amp repair guy, who finally finished refurbing an old Hiwatt I bought recently. The dude was raving about the amp, saying (among other things) that it was the loudest amp he had *ever* had in his store. Turns out the thing -- officially rated at 100W -- churns out 125W when things are set to "5" or "6", but when you crank the thing to "10," you're actually getting close to 250W of skull-rattling power out of it! Wowsers!

Oats, good call on the "pretentious" charge. In today's poll I voted for the long-overdue mating of Beat poetry and garage rock as being a benefit of the NY punk scene. Unlike Eplurbie, I'm not threatened by pretentiousness in the arts. I think it's healthy now and then, so long the pretentious practitioners of the art form, in this case rock 'n roll, don't lose sight of the main objectives of the form itself. In other words, literary allusions in NYC punk=cool; The Decemberists=snoozefest.

But before we get off the same page, Oats, you've also made a good point about Blondie's albums. They turned out some prime shit when they weren't making singles.

High five, Mr. Mod!

Also, one more thing. I find it odd that Epluribus cites Clinton Heylin's punk writings. If I'm not mistaken, one of Heylin's big tenents is that NYC punk didn't, contrary to popular belief, influence the London arm. If I remember correctly, the UK scene was already evolving on its own and The Sex Pistols already played many shows before the Ramones/Talking Heads European tour that supposedly got the ball rolling.

fritz, et.al, i refuse to allow a thread about merits or 70s nyc punk evolve to into a discussion about zztop, our shared love for the zeez notwithstanding.

gurg, i LOVE YOU, man. i think "personality crisis", "blank generation", "love comes in spurts", and...oh...idunno, "sedated", are great pop songs that come MUCH closer to succintly defining the american mid 70s than just about anything else you could name.

do you like these songs...as songs? i like them regardless of their geographical point of origin, and i think they transcend the notion that the nyc 70s punk thing contributed an "ethos" rather than great tunes.

Oats wrote:

...one of Heylin's big tenents is that NYC punk didn't, contrary to popular belief, influence the London arm. If I remember correctly, the UK scene was already evolving on its own and The Sex Pistols already played many shows before the Ramones/Talking Heads European tour that supposedly got the ball rolling.

It's a good thing I have 2 hands, because I've got plenty of fives to go around today. I do know the man sincerely loves that book, as I do. I even love the material on The Dead Boys. You may be right in remembering his claim regarding the overrated influence of the NY scene on the UK punks. Musically, I think the UK punks owe a lot more to their own Glam and Art Rock heritage. How many UK bands beside The Undertones, on parts of their first album, really sound anything like The Ramones? How many UK bands beside U2, after the big punk explosion, really took much from Television? I hear a lot of Mott the Hoople and Bowie, a little Roxy Music, Eno, and all those bubblegum Glam bands - not to mention The Who, The Kinks, and other typically British '60s bands - behind The Clash, The Sex Pistols, The Buzzcocks, et al. NYC punk bands tended to have more of a Stones/garage basis to their sound.

I'm staying away from this thread, for the most part, on purpose. I just started to type out something about stereotyping and thought no, not worth it. But I will put in a word for the sporadic greatness of Johnny Thunders, both with the Dolls, the Heartbreakers, and solo. So Alone is uneven but has some undeniably great cuts, especially "Can't Put Your Arms Around A Memory."

Of course, he qualifies as a precursor here, I suppose.

Oats,

It's been ages since I read the Heylin book. As a matter of fact, I think I might have loaned my copy to the Moderator. I honestly can't remember what Heylin said about the New York Scene influencing the British one. What I recall most about the book were the anecdotes about stuff like bringing lawn mowers on the stage. I think that might have been Rocket from the Tombs.

After reading the book, I revisited a lot of the New York stuff, and it was just plain bad. I did the same thing after reading the Barry Gifford book about Kerouac and reread a lot of those beat books. Bad, plain simple. Pretension can be smelled a mile away. How good can something be when it comes from someone who really has nothing to say?

I need you to elaborate here. How can that not bother you? Remember, you're dealing with someone who has an IQ in the double digits. Keep your explanation as clear as possible.

Hope to hear from you soon,
E. Pluribus

Hey Moderator,

I'll take "My Reservation's Been Confirmed" over ANY New York Punk Scene title any day of the week! That record's got more balls than anything New York has to offer.

E. Pluribus

Hey Art,

I don't like any of those songs as songs. They're just plain boring. Sorry!

Watch this. English Scene. Ten Winners:

1) Teenage Kicks
2) Anarchy in the UK
3) God Save the Queen
4) What Do I Get?
5) Ever Fallen in Love?
6) Death or Glory
7) Lost in the Supermarket
8) Just about any Costello title pre Imperial Bedroom
9) Oh Bondage Up Yours
10) Kiss me Deadly. . .

No work required whatsoever. I typed the whole thing out in less than a minute. . . . .And I could put up another ten 10 favorites lists from the English scene in the same amount of time. It's simple. New York: Awful: Britiain: Greatest Stuff Since Sliced Bread.

Figure out that bass line from Rock the Casbah yet?

Just having fun,
E. Pluribus

Matt,

I've gotta run. I gotta check out a record collection. As soon as I get back, I'll check in with ya. You made a noble effort in your defense of the scene. That said, I'll be looking forward to tearing you a new asshole when I get back.

Talk to ya soon!
E. Pluribus

And I look forward to reading it. Isn't that what RTH is all about? :-)

Finally, Blondie were indeed an amazing singles band (can't believe no one's mentioned "Atomic" yet), but their albums blow. Lotsa genre exercises and other crapola.

Oats, I agree with the other parts of your post completely. You and Big Steve are the only other voices of reason so far regarding this thread (oh and Mark's nice defense of Johnny Thunders counts here as well). However, I have to take issue with you here. I don't think that their BEST albums (i.e. the 1st one and Parallel Lines) are genre exercises, but more an affirmation of their signature sound. They both have great singles (as you cited) and fantastic deep cuts, too. Check out "Rifle Range" from the 1st album or their great cover of Buddy Holly's "I'm Gonna Love You Too" from Parallel Lines. Now if you're just talking about their post-Eat to the Beat material, then I agree with you 150%. Autoamerican is a terrible album aside from its 2 singles and while I don't own and have never heard The Hunter in its entirety, I can only imagine how bad it is since I don't even like its singles. Talk about genre exercises!

And then Jim wrote:

It's a good thing I have 2 hands, because I've got plenty of fives to go around today. I do know the man sincerely loves that book, as I do. I even love the material on The Dead Boys. You may be right in remembering his claim regarding the overrated influence of the NY scene on the UK punks. Musically, I think the UK punks owe a lot more to their own Glam and Art Rock heritage. How many UK bands beside The Undertones, on parts of their first album, really sound anything like The Ramones? How many UK bands beside U2, after the big punk explosion, really took much from Television? I hear a lot of Mott the Hoople and Bowie, a little Roxy Music, Eno, and all those bubblegum Glam bands - not to mention The Who, The Kinks, and other typically British '60s bands - behind The Clash, The Sex Pistols, The Buzzcocks, et al. NYC punk bands tended to have more of a Stones/garage basis to their sound.

I mostly agree with this, but I think the real truth is somewhere in the middle. It's not so much that bands other than The Undertones SOUNDED like The Ramones (which they didn't, for the most part), but it's that along with inspiration from The Sex Pistols, The Ramones inspired them to put out records, play shows and what not because of their lack of professionalism and instrumental prowess.

With that said, yeah a lot of UK punk was heavily influenced by early '70s glam and the mid '60s British Invasion stuff, but I can also hear the New York Dolls influence on The Sex Pistols (obviously) as well as The Undertones and The Clash.

You're right about the balance of influences, Matt. I grossly oversimplified the equation.

If we're going to talk NY vs UK, then UK all the way. Is there anyone here that choose NY over UK punk?

Matt,

Truth be told, I can't really defend any of this nonsense. My main beef with all those NYC/CBGBs records is that they're stiffer than an adolescent hillbilly pecker. TOO white. Too much head and not enough heart.

Forget all the other crap I threw out into the ring. The above is what I really think.

I don't wanna tear you a new asshole. If ya like all that stuff, fine. You stood behind "The Hardest Part", and that alone puts a huge smile on my face.

Honestly though, you've gotta admit that, for the most part, the English records are rhythmically more interesting.

Hope to hear from ya soon,
E. Pluribus

plurb,

you're a funny man. alas, i am not. i'm utterly humorless.

you say 'personality crisis' etc. are 'boring' and proceed to name ten other songs i love, and class right in there with the ones i named.

what can a poor boy do?

i'm certainly not going to argue for the "highly discursive" manner in which the songs i've named engaged american popular culture, both musically and lyrically. you already know how rich these songs are.

nor will i put down the songs you've named. i like them too.

but i will ask you to give me substantial differences between the ones i've named and the ones you've named, beyond their geographical points of origin.

what makes one set boring and the other so great? i see them all as being of a piece.

i'm sure you'll come up with provocative stuff...

i look forward to reading it.

one more thing: if anything, the lack of influence, or even flow, between the british and nyc punk scenes makes them even more "of a piece" to me; they both arose organically, out of social conditions, rather than one arising for stylistic reasons out of a desire to mimic the other.

Maudlin,

Good move. C'mon, man! Get the vote out! US or UK?

Hope to hear from you soon,
Maudlin and E. Pluribis

P.S. What the world needs now, is Snydes, sweet Snydes. His input would be greatly appreciated!

Art asks:

"but i will ask you to give me substantial differences between the ones i've named and the ones you've named, beyond their geographical points of origin"

The English records are, for the most part, rhythmically more interesting. They're more fluid. The Brits have always known that the two most important players in the band are the drummer and the singer. Bass and guitar players are a dime a dozen.

Yours,
E. Pluribus

The UK punk records were made, for the most part, with the assistance and/or direct involvement of a lot of experienced recording industry types - the older pub rockers and their producers, producers as esteemed as Chris Thomas, managers of pub and art rock bands... In other words, the UK punk was, for the most part, much more professionally done. The US stuff that, for the most part, preceded the UK stuff was done more on the fly. Who beside Richard Gotterer (sp?) and a few other guys like that had great ties to the establishment or even semi-establishment? Marquee Moon is produced by a pedigreed producer, and it sounds that way. It's as rhythmically coherent as any UK punk album. Same goes for Talking Heads records. Blondie was always kind of cheesy and pedestrian, yet strong at making singles. Almost anyone else that comes immediately to mind out of that scene were doing it pretty much themselves, such as The Ramones. It's remarkable they made records as effective as they did considering the dopes behind that operation.

A lot of my favorite bands - period - are from the UK scene, so it's no surprise I'd lean that way, but there's a lot of crap out of that scene too, even by bands that could be brilliant for a few songs per album, such as The Jam.

Oh, and talk about bad rhythm sections and you're talking about The Jam. Few musicians worked harded to make a band worthwhile than Weller, but that's a discussion for another day, if we haven't had that one once before:)

Maudlin,

I'm not insane. Check out what Joe Boyd had to say about the sort of discoveries you and I both experienced in our small towns:

"History today seems more like a postmodern college; we are surrounded by two-dimensional representations of our heritage. Access via Amazon.com or iPOd to all those boxed sets of old blues singers -or Nick Drake, for that matter - doesn't equate with the sense of discovery and connection we experienced. The very existence of such a wealth of information creates an overload that can drown out vivid moments of revelation."

Right on, brother!
E. Pluribus

Hey Moderator,

Know that I'm looking forward to mwall's reappearance. What I like best about him is his ability to suck out the real meaning of what you're trying to say.

I don't give a rat's ass if Geoge Martin or Allen Toussaint was producing the records. That's certainly not one of my criteria when I'm thinking about opening up my wallet. The record either sounds good or it doesn't. This isn't a little league game where you're patted on the back for grounding out.

And your take on the Jam shows you still have major hearing problems. Granted, the records don't sound as good as they did when I was a teenager, but they're still rhythmically strong. Good and fluid.

Sing up for an Arthur Murray class.
E. Pluribus

Why are we forced to compare a city with a country, an empire actually? I'm being asked to choose between the musical output of a city (actually the output of a single club in that city) and the combined output of every band in every city and hamlet in the UK, including Northern Ireland. I’d say that’s not a fair fight.

Hey Steve,

You're really looking for fair play? This is Rock Town Hall, for Christ's sake! Moderated by the ultimate weirdo, a guy so bizarre that he actually writes songs for the sole purpose of seeing what sort of psychological toll it'll take on his bandmates.

Wake up and smell the coffee!
E. Pluribus

gurg,

thanks for the succinct answer to my question.

it makes me wonder if we're listening to the same tunes. rhytmically speaking, my american songs have everything that your brit tunes have.

and production DOES matter. watch your brit bands perform the songs you name and you'll see how much it does matter when it comes to establishing the "rhytmically interesting" quality in the songs you like. then watch the american bands perform theirs. they're actually much better players than the brits for the most part.

however, let's say, for argument's sake, that your brit tunes ARE, objectively speaking, more rhythmically interesting than my american tunes. this is only one aspect. what about vocals? songwriting? melody? lyrical content.

not only would i put "personality crisis" etc., up against your brit songs, i'd put them up against the songs of any era in all of these categories, including "rhythmic interest".

is our beloved mid-60s psyche as rhythmically interesting as 'blank generation'? not to my ears. but it has a host of other things to offer.

i know your ears are capable of hearing more than your comments in this thread indicate. your comments about the jam (with which i agree) prove it.

Gerg says:

Know that I'm looking forward to mwall's reappearance. What I like best about him is his ability to suck out the real maeaing of what you're trying to say.

I say:

I really can't tell if that's a pat on the back or an insult!

How many UK bands beside U2, after the big punk explosion, really took much from Television?

I forgot to add this to previous post: I think that Television had a much more profound influence on UK post-punk bands like Echo and the Bunnymen and the aforementioned U2 than on any late '70s punk bands. However, I think their real influence is on U.S. indie rock starting with bands like Pavement and then extending to more recent ones like Interpol and The Strokes.

Truth be told, I can't really defend any of this nonsense. My main beef with all those NYC/CBGBs records is that they're stiffer than an adolescent hillbilly pecker. TOO white. Too much head and not enough heart.

While I won't do a comparison of the UK vs New York songs you listed since I love all of them, I will comment on what you wrote above since I think we're headed somewhere now. Punk, at least the sort started in New York in the mid '70s (not counting proto-punk influences like The Stooges and the Dolls), was the first music to reject the notion that in order to successfully "rock", you had to rip off (ok "be influenced by" probably sounds better) black music. It was the first music born of mainly white, suburban (or urban in the case of the original New York, Hollywood and San Francisco scenes) experience and as such, that's why John Belushi called it "the white man's blues" (I'm paraphrasing here). I include the UK stuff here, too. As you said, they're of one piece and one continent definitely influenced the other with many of the LA bands taking their cues from the English punks and what not. I also think that when hardcore came around a few years later, it was even more like what I described above ("whiter" if you will), which I think is one of the reasons you, Jim, David and so many other people on here and many others who like the original punk stuff couldn't and still can't stand it.

As for me, I grew up mainly in suburban Baton Rouge, LA and then in suburban New Jersey before heading off to New York and eventually here in Philadelphia, so those records' spoke to me and still do, actually. I believe there's a time and a place for just about anything if it's good and I enjoy it. I can play a Howlin' Wolf record and follow it with a Dead Kennedys record or something.

I don't wanna tear you a new asshole. If ya like all that stuff, fine. You stood behind "The Hardest Part", and that alone puts a huge smile on my face.

How could I NOT stand behind that song? It's one of the best things Blondie ever did. Amen brother.

Art,

I don't give a hoot about how well the songs are performed live. Don't equate this whole thing with observing a sports event. The record itself either sounds good or it doesn't. Let's say the worst elements are at play: bad song, bad chops, bad vocals, bad drummer, etc. . . yet somehow or another the producer and engineer manage to turn the performance into something wonderful. What survives is what's in the grooves. If it sounds good, that's all that matters.

As far as the other elements are concerned, I agree they're all important. That said, nothing's worse than a drummer that sucks. Case in point is the Big Star drummer, one of the all time worst rock and roll drummers. Go back and listen to some of those Big Turd tracks to see how a decent song can get screwed over by a clueless drummer whose sole concern is his own awful sound.

And you're gonna lose a lot of my respect if you champion anything from Johansen. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. He's a D+ Jagger at best, aping Jagger's performing, writing, and code of ethics.. Who needs a D+ Jagger when they can readily have the real thing. Not me.

And your ears are not working worth a damn if you think "Blank Generation" is even the slightest bit rhythmically interesting. The same cannot be said of "The Beat Generation", "My Generation", or "Your Generation."

I love ya, man, but we HAVE to get this straightened out. Don't make bring up the jangle thing, Soul Asylum, Greek fisherman caps. . .you know what I'm talkin' about!

Still your buddy (I think),
E. Pluribus

Hey, 2000 man!

If a D+ Jagger shows up at your back door for a beer, do you invite him in or tell him to get off your property?

I'm askin' you 'cause you sound like you've got balls as big as globes.

Hope to hear from you soon,
E. Pluribus

P.S. You wanna gab Stones? You've found your man! Hrundi's another guy that loves the Stones too. . . when he's not listenin' to comps featuring songs like "Tush", "Don't Bring Me Down", and "Raspberry Beret".

Yeah, yeah, UK vs. NYC, blah, blah. I'm more interested in this theory of small-town musical myopia/insight.

Lord knows I got a heapin' helpin' of this phenomenon spending my formative teen years in Central America and Africa. I'm sure we all spent way too much time staring -- literally staring, for half an hour at a time -- at album covers and lyric sleeves. But each album I managed to get my hands on was so precious that I spent hours and hours *trying* to like it. I had to -- it might be months before I'd hear anything new! This is why the albums that simply failed to make the grade, despite my trying -- Jackson Browne Turde, Peter Tosh, late-period Jethro Tull, and others -- have always been more than just bad records to me; they're traitorous. I tried to love them, but they just sucked too much!

Having said that, the "I want to believe" rose-colored glasses also allowed some fairly towering cresters to pass muster: Ted Nugent crap, Pat Travers, the Michael Schenker Group (so help me!), and others.

And, Plurbie, I'll admit that part of my fierce partisanship towards ZZ Top is the result of the stewardship of my cool Cousin Ben, when I was, shit, 10 or 11. Ben wasn't technically a cousin -- his mom was my Dad's cuz, though, and just about the only relative my family had in the States beyond grandparents.

Anyhow, Cousin Ben lived in Pecos, Texas -- which, anybody from Texas will tell you, is just about the hottest, dustiest, middle-of-nowhere-iest city in the state (and that's saying something). My first exposure to the Zeez was riding along with my 17 year-old cousin, in the back of a full-on 70s van, while Cousin Ben and his buddies drank beer and fired a pistol out the window at passing highway signs. I was astonished -- Ben wasn't a "bad kid" -- was this just what one did in Texas? The soundtrack to this teenage mayhem (note: firing a gun out the window of a speeding van in the desert surrounding Pecos, Texas is an extremely *un*-dangerous activity, unless you're worried about scratching a cactus) was ZZ Top's "Rio Grande Mud," and I was enthralled. From that day forward, I knew ZZ Top to be a band that cool kids listened to. The fact that their music did not, in fact, suck, has made me appreciate that beer-drinkin', gun-shootin' drive through the desert an even more important signpost on my road to musical discovery.

Jumping forward five or six years, I remember hearing the first real punk music my earbones ever experienced, buzzing up out of the 3-inch speaker attached to Paul Shield's portable cassette player -- "Suspect Device" by the Stiff Little Fingers -- and I had one of those Damascus Road experiences, where I knew that I knew something truly Important and Great had been revealed to me. Fuck ZZ Top -- this shit was *real*! I remember nobody had the means to copy cassettes, so that tape of Paul's was traded and re-traded many times over. We all *loved* SLF because if it.

Anyhow, I've rambled even more incoherently than usual. Tired, I guess. Plus, my dog is exploding, so I gotta go walk the thing. Talk to you later --

HVB

Hey Matt,

All that was well put. And more power to ya if you can get beyond all that whiteness. I just can't do it. My body just doesn't respond to those records.

Finding a damn good drummer is always a hell of a task! I was lucky enough to have one for a few years -Farrah Fawcett Fingeroff. Because he was a singer and songwriter more than anything else, he knew what a song really needed drumwise.

Good points, my man!
E. Pluribus

P.S. By the way, I watched "The Mayor of Sunset Strip" again. Is Michael Des Barres the ultimate rock and roll clod or what? Nothing is worse than the jackass who think he's the cat's meow and is really in fact an absolute buffoon. My version of hell is having both him and Ray Manzarek bore me for all eternity with their incredibly witty stories of their days in the rock and roll business.

Hrundi,

Well done. From this day on, there will be no more Top, Lynne, or Prince jabs. I'm always a sucker for the sentimental.

Talk to ya soon,
E. Pluribus

eplurb,

if you have to use this bullshit tactic of putting your respect for me on the line every time we disagree about rock, then what value can your respect for me possibly have?

come out from behind the name calling ("D plus Jagger"), the grandiose but ultimately empty proclamations ("your ears are not working worth a damn if you think "Blank Generation" is even the slightest bit rhythmically interesting"), the manipulative allusions to past threads, the threats to withdraw respect, and be a man, you right-sick bastard.

give me something concrete.

i've given you plenty of descriptions of these tunes to back them up. you've done next to nothing to match it.

Hey, Professor! Check this out!

Your pal,

HVB

Argument by assertion is the scourge of rock discussions, especially when you can't sit someone in front of a set of speakers and point out specific passages.

A is a 'turd.' B is 'the greatest thing since sliced bread.' I'd like something a bit more concrete too, but I'm still trying to get my head around the suggestion that British drummers are somehow less afflicted with whiteness than American drummers.

Hey Art,

Let's get something straight, right here and now. I value respect more than anything. Case in point is an event that occurred about 10 years or so ago. The moderator was there so he can verify that the following did indeed happen.

The Moderator and I spent the weekend in my hometown with our respective ball and chains. They were kind enough to let us sneak out early Sunday morning to hit the flea market. As soon as we got there, I spotted a box of LPs with interesting covers. Toward the back of the box I found beat up copies of James Brown's "Papa's Got a Brand New Bag" and "I Got You" LPs. The dealer told me I couild have both for $5.00. I made a counter offer of $1.00 for the pair. Although he was not pleased with the counter offer, he had the decency to say, "I RESPECT the offer, but I'll politely decline."

The Moderator and I then proceeded to move on in search of other treasures.

No name calling, no threats, no nothing. . . .In short, a business deal that went nowhere but handled with mutual respecet.

And that's all I ask from you as well.
E. Pluribus

hvb,

man, that version of "nationwide" is buzzin'. i wish they had the whole show on the vault! thanks for the tip.

i saw them on that tour. you know, it was so punk to do things that were despised by punks, that i couldn't say 'no' when my punk rock girlfriend waved two tickets in my face. our experience came complete with an early 80s coke snorting yuppie in the seats next to ours, wearing a powder blue suit with the sleeves rolled up. her response to that show from the minute we walked in might be the earliest act of ironic enjoyment i witnessed, a full 8 years before the 90s even began on the calendar.

plurb,

that's a great anecdote. seriously.

let's stay on point.

i'm waiting for your concrete, detailed descriptions of the aspects of the tunes in question, in order to support your claims about them.

sans your distracting rhetorical accoutrements.

i know you've got it in you. that's why i'm even bothering to ask.

Art,

Forget it. Me and my gang just finished off a rotisserie chicken, a pot full of stuffing, green beans, and cookies for dessert. In the words of the immortal Carousel, "Superlicious delight." I can barely move. I'm not gonna ruin this food buzz on a bunch of slobs that lumbered through their numbers as clumsily as the Moderator when he's trying to make a point in a post. Go ahead and like that stuff. To me, it's always gonna taste like one of those High School Home Ec projects, real bland with no flavor whatsoever.

E. Pluribus

hey plurb,

sounds like a great meal.

you can call those songs alot of things, but clumsy and bland aren't even close...even their harshest detractors would certainly not use the latter word.

thanks for your permission to like a bunch of songs that are near and dear to my heart, and have pretty much saved my life in some small way just about every time i've ever heard them, because they remind me that it IS, after all, only rock and roll.

you can continue to focus on what they DON'T have going for them. I'll continue to hear what they DO have going for them.

neither view is "right". but mine's a lot more fun.

this dissertation is done by the end of the summer. after that, i'm holding you to our evening of the ristorante of my choice food and acoustic guitars.

hai capito il senso?

speriamo di si.

You got it, my man. And let's stick with the 60s stuff. I don't wanna do any more fightin'.

Talk to ya soon,
E. Pluribus

yeah, we fight like brothers.

some good stuff in this conversation, by the way.

you need to teach me what you know about the 50s. you know what i like. be ready to hit me with some tunes when we hang.

Epluribus, in perhaps the most clueless thing he's ever said, wrote:

I don't give a rat's ass if Geoge Martin or Allen Toussaint was producing the records. That's certainly not one of my criteria when I'm thinking about opening up my wallet. The record either sounds good or it doesn't.

OK, so it's just a matter of chance. And teenage boners and all that shit. Thanks for the insight.

Matt wrote:

I think that Television had a much more profound influence on UK post-punk bands like Echo and the Bunnymen and the aforementioned U2 than on any late '70s punk bands. However, I think their real influence is on U.S. indie rock starting with bands like Pavement and then extending to more recent ones like Interpol and The Strokes.

OK, I give up. You're right Epluribus. I've been shot with my own gun!

Boy e-plurb (I'm not sure what your nickname would be, but that seems to give you the cache of at least an i-pod), I gotta say that your whole NYC vs. England punk thang has just had me scratching my sac and wondering all day. Those two scenes were one to me in my youth. Never Mind the Bollocks changed everything for me. I didn't have to feign interest in any of that piss poor classic rock like The Nooge or "shudder" Led Zeppelin. There was something out there that I cared about. The NYC scene was a killer. The neighbor chick down the street was a huge Patti Smith fan, and she convinced me that PSG had the pedigree that I demand for a band, and the originality to fuse their influences into something a little bit more than whatever it was Blue Oyster Cult was up to those days.

I like those NYC bands and I like the Brit bands. I'm sure you know all the bands referred to in Heylin's book, but have you checked out The Revelons? That cd has to be in the cutout bins by now. They were like Television meets Chuck Berry at times. My local record store owner told me I'd like it and for me, they're just one more reason to love the NYC scene that spawned the Talking Heads, Blondie and The Ramones (is that really not enough?)

BTW Mr. Mod, I'm not appreciative of your dig at one of Cleveland's finest. The Dead Boys were super ginchy. Stiv was a tool, but Cheetah Chrome is a freaking machine. And here's where I say guitars drive rock n' roll. A great drummer is nice, but better yet is a great drum sound. A bass player may be a great addition, but then again they're often just a necessary evil. Guitars drove the Dead Boys. Guitars drove The Pagans, and guitars were the jet fuel for Rocket From the Tombs. Sure, Rockets splintered off into two more influential bands, but both of those bands played Rockets songs. I've been fortunate enough to see them three times since they got back together with Richard Lloyd taking Peter Laughner's place, and it's literally like standing behind a jet engine.

So I really can relate to that brute force kind of rock n' roll considerably more than something like Good Day Sunshine.I think that's one of those songs that's not even on my radar. It's far too happy and soccer mom and dad friendly for me. Those NYC and Cleveland bands just fit the grey and dead end feel of a lot of parts of my fair town.

So I can't pick between the two. I'll say that Marquee Moon is one of the best songs ever written, anywhere and at any time. The Ramones were everything right about what a rock n' roll band should be, and while the arty crap of the Talking Heads was a bit much, it certainly proved to be the kind of thing that could attract a large audience and yet still maintain its core audience from way back. Like selling out and being underground at the same time. Few bands have pulled that off.

Hey, 2000 man!

If a D+ Jagger shows up at your back door for a beer, do you invite him in or tell him to get off your property?

I'm askin' you 'cause you sound like you've got balls as big as globes.

Hope to hear from you soon,
E. Pluribus

P.S. You wanna gab Stones? You've found your man! Hrundi's another guy that loves the Stones too. . . when he's not listenin' to comps featuring songs like "Tush", "Don't Bring Me Down", and "Raspberry Beret"

D+ Jagger? Outside of Dirty Work Jagger has always brought the A game. Dirty Work gets him a C. Yeah, his solo albums suck, but that dude deserves mostly nothing but total respect just for being Mick Jagger. He can stop by here and have a Great Lakes Burning River Pale Ale any time he wants. Hell, he sang Rip This Joint, didn't he?

My balls are big enough, and my skin is thick enough. I've been trying to rewrite rock n' roll history from a Stones fan's perspective on the Internet for ten years or so now. I'm a big boy, I can probably take it. BTW, I like how you called me out on a thread I hadn't joined yet. Way to anticipate, buddy!

Globe - ally yours,

2000 Man

2000 Man - emphasis on MAN - well done. Although we will continue to agree to disagree on the Dead Boys specifically (any Rocket from the Tombs defense must be thrown out - the best of that bunch went on to form my favorite Ohio band, Pere Ubu!), you have stood up from your aluminum folding chair and defended yourself admirably, taking some shots back along that way. THAT, my friends, is the Rock Town Hall way. Thanks for making yourself at home. You are welcome to continue your Stones-perspective work here!

I agree with Mr. Mod's take on your contributions, Globes. Keep up the good work! And while you're at it, would you care to comment on the hierarchy of Stones solo output? I mean, where would you rank "Stone Alone," or "Monkey Grip" with, say, "Gimme Some Neck" or Jonesey's "Joujouka" album? They've all gone solo at some point -- is the whole of their solo output better or worse than those Kiss solo albums?

Looking forward to hearing from you,

HVB

Hey 2000 man,

YOU DO HAVE GLOBELIKE ROCK AND ROLL BALLS. We need more of your kind around here. Count me in with Hrundi. I'd like to hear your take on the solo Wyman stuff.

Hope to hear from you soon,
E. Pluribus

How many UK bands beside U2, after the big punk explosion, really took much from Television?

So what you're saying is that you've never heard Felt.