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Takin' it to the Main Stage: Beggars Banquet Is the Worst of the Great Stones Albums!
06/27/07 | by Mr. Moderator
A few Townspeople have been bugging me to restate my opinion that The Rolling Stones' Beggars Banquet is the worst of the great Stones albums. I've been holding off on doing this for a few reasons, including the following:
- I've been really busy and I don't want to give this topic anything less than my full attention.
- I'm loathe to have to define "great Stones albums."
- I've been really busy and haven't wanted to waste any of my precious time on all those "blackface" acoustic, dusty porch-blues numbers that litter that album.
As I've fiddled, Rock Town Hall's dugout has started to smoulder with dialog such as the following:
Townsman Hrrundi: What's wrong with you, boy? I just gave "Beggars Banquet" a quick scan for a reality check, and I was right -- it's a stinker! It's got a few strong -- in one or two cases, crucially important -- Stones tracks, but in general, the album is chock-a-block with the worst kind of pretendo-country/blues nonsense. Really. I'll give you "Street Fighting Man" and "Stray Cat Blues" -- those are songs where the Stones actually bring something unique and Stonesian to the table. But all those acoustic snoozers? Gimme a break! Music to clean the bong by!
Townsman Epluribusgergely: Beggar's Banquet will never be an LP for your ears. Why? 1) It doesn't have your beloved written and recorded at Sam Ash sound that Aerosmith too favored when they recorded their version of "Walkin' the Dog." 2) There's an originality in the pseudo country blues numbers that you're not hearing, i.e. taking Harry Smith anthology material and making it dirtier, ethics and style wise. 3) There's an overall emphasis on acoustic instruments. And 4) They thought Bob Dylan was good...
Although I'm impressed by Hrrundi's opening salvo, I can't trust that this discussion will proceed toward the final, necessary point without my involvement, so let's get it on!
Follow up:
I'll start by defining the "great" Rolling Stones albums. This short list won't waste time with individual, early Brian Jones-era albums, because although a couple of them are great - OK, 12 X 5, December's Children (and Everybody's) - none is greater than the band's most underappreciated Greatest Hits masterpiece, Big Hits (High Tide and Green Grass). The Brian Jones-era Stones is, for my money, the greatest singles-producing band in rock history, even better than my beloved Beatles and the singles-only Creedence Clearwater Revival. So let's give credit where credit's due. It also goes without saying that Hot Rocks is an awesome album, but let's not quibble about any of the albums listed as "great" in this paragraph.
It's in this paragraph that I'll list the great albums by The Rolling Stones: Beggars Banquet, Let It Bleed, Exile on Main Street (yes, even the full-length version), and Some Girls. Regardless of backstory, leftover tracks, tax status, and so forth, each of these albums sound as if it was put together with a purpose. According to almost any set of objective criteria, each of these albums is great. So before I make the argument that Beggars Banquet is the worst of the great Stones albums, take a minute to reflect on the love and respect I have for this album I never listen to in its entirety.
Judging this album by this particular cover
Please note, before I break down some of my objections to the album's relative greatness, that I'm assessing the album on its originally marketed "classy invitation" front cover, not the restored dirty bathroom cover that has since made the album even cooler than it was during its heyday. I don't care that this is the originally intended cover, just like I don't care that Lou Reed wrote "Sweet Jane" with that "heavenly wine and roses" middle eighth that got snipped out of the original studio release of the song. OK?
"Sympathy for the Devil" is outstanding. It promises a groundbreaking album, doesn't it? An album that takes rock 'n roll to new heights - or depths, as may be the case in terms of vicarious moral decay, heh, heh! "No Expectations" is pretty cool for a slide-guitar blues song. I'm not great at dates, but it's got to be up there with the first Faces album in terms of bringing rural, acoustic blues to the fore of white British rock. Good production touches too. A worthy successor to the opening jolt of "Sympathy..." Lets those first few bong hits take root.
Things begin to go wrong, relatively, with "Dear Doctor". A track like this is the reason rock artists started leaving tracks in the "outtakes" bin, waiting for the day when record companies could repackage what must have seemed like great ideas in their time as "rarities" for sickos like us. How can anyone who's got a beef with even the thought of suburban, middle-class guys affecting country twangs and ditching their Epiphone Gibson copy guitars for strumming cowboy chords on knockoff, inlaid fretboard acoustic guitars accept this? Sounds like an exercise in Hillbilly Chic to my ears. Where's more of the magic promised by "Sympathy..."?
"Parachute Woman" may be the worst Stones song on even all the good Stones albums. It's surely the least-necessary song they ever committed to tape. Please explain the use of this song for anything but to cover the sound of doing stuff in your bedroom as a teenager that your parents would not approve of knowing you were doing.
"Jigsaw Puzzle" has some nice peaks thanks to the drumming of Jimmy Miller, Bernard Purdie, or whatever drummer sat in for the swingingly challenged Charlie Watts, but Jagger's Dylan schtick is no more interesting than any number of 3rd-rate Dylans who've come in Bobby Z's wake. Maybe the only thing more pathetic than Jagger singing like he wants to turn on Bob Dylan circa-Blonde on Blonde is Jagger trying to turn on Bianca or some 16-year-old South American supermodel. Thankfully, Goat's Head Soup is not among the great albums by the Stones.
Isn't the story on this album that Brian Jones was so out of it that the band would let him plug in and play along but not record his parts? Whether they turned his mic up or not, "Street Fighting Man" is the only song on this album that sounds like a Brian Jones-era classic. Stone cold classic! It's the only song that gels in the way their great '60s singles gelled. The other few good songs gel in their own way, but not in that '60s way that I so love.
Did the Stones receive an honorary degree in Bluesology from Tuskegee University for their version of "Prodigal Son"? I hope so. They earned it! Although I usually lift the needle on this one, it's well done. Much better than anything Faces would do on their first album with Rod Stewart and Ron Wood.
"Stray Cat Blues" is very cool, as cool as you might like to believe the whole album is. I can fully enjoy this song. This song points toward the coming greatness of Let It Bleed. I can't believe how many of you rated that one as the worst of their best albums, when this topic came up a week or two again, but there's nothing I'd like less than to see folks debate stuff like that in the middle of this more-important and focused thread.
The would-be honorary degree bestowed upon the Stones for "Prodigal Son" was ripped from their hands and smashed by an Appalachian family upon hearing "Factory Girl". This is so bad on so many levels that I prefer we refrain from discussing it on this list.
Finally, "Salt on the Earth". If you weren't clear enough by now of the band's humble stance on this album, this track brings things to a close. I like this song enough. I prefer the title track from their next album, which goes through many of the same beer-raising mechanisms, but this one's really not bad.
So there it goes. I look forward to reaching consensus on this topic.
59 comments
Comment from: saturnismine [Member] 
just moving my own response to fritz's anti Beggar's salvo to this thread, where I hope he'll respond:
forget plurb's re-opening of old dylan, "sam ashe", and "walkin' the dog" wounds (plurb, i know i'm not the moderator, but these tantamount to personal attacks, a tactic you resorts to all too often, which is why i SAT ON YOU SO FRIGGIN' HARD in recent threads; really brother, you're much better than this).
let's stay on point just talk about the songs on beggars, and their merit relative to other songs by the stones and others, rather than making reference to an individual's tastes, okay?
and mod, forgive me if i'm overstepping my bounds...
here's what I wrote:
"fritz, i'm not so much of a fan of the hoaky "dear doctor", "factory girl" and "prodigal son" either, but let's be fair. by the very aeshtetic you seem to be espousing in your "I'll give you "s f m"" paragraph, you gotta at least also "give" plurb "parachute woman", "jigsaw puzzle", and, of course, its evil twin, "sympathy". "no expectations" is quite the plum, too.
[so i'm asking, fritz, what say you about these other tunes you haven't mentioned at all?...no one word answers like "snooze", please.]
[my own personal feelings on Beggars'...(cringe)..."ranking":]
"BB is not a turd (said in schwarzenegger's 'not a tooomer' voice). but it's my second favorite of the Stones 'murderer's row' run of albums, with 'sticky' clocking in at number 1."
I'll add...
to sum up, i think that the presence of "sympathy", "street fightin'", "stray cat", "parachute" and some EXCELLENT slide guitar throughout, even on keef's toofless "salt of the earff", prevent it from being the "worst" of the stones' great albums.
to say it's not the best is reasonable. but to call it "the worst", one would have to do ALOT more arguing than fritz has done already (as if "i listened to it again and it still stinks" - and i know i'm paraphrasing - is enough!).
art
forget plurb's re-opening of old dylan, "sam ashe", and "walkin' the dog" wounds (plurb, i know i'm not the moderator, but these tantamount to personal attacks, a tactic you resorts to all too often, which is why i SAT ON YOU SO FRIGGIN' HARD in recent threads; really brother, you're much better than this).
let's stay on point just talk about the songs on beggars, and their merit relative to other songs by the stones and others, rather than making reference to an individual's tastes, okay?
and mod, forgive me if i'm overstepping my bounds...
here's what I wrote:
"fritz, i'm not so much of a fan of the hoaky "dear doctor", "factory girl" and "prodigal son" either, but let's be fair. by the very aeshtetic you seem to be espousing in your "I'll give you "s f m"" paragraph, you gotta at least also "give" plurb "parachute woman", "jigsaw puzzle", and, of course, its evil twin, "sympathy". "no expectations" is quite the plum, too.
[so i'm asking, fritz, what say you about these other tunes you haven't mentioned at all?...no one word answers like "snooze", please.]
[my own personal feelings on Beggars'...(cringe)..."ranking":]
"BB is not a turd (said in schwarzenegger's 'not a tooomer' voice). but it's my second favorite of the Stones 'murderer's row' run of albums, with 'sticky' clocking in at number 1."
I'll add...
to sum up, i think that the presence of "sympathy", "street fightin'", "stray cat", "parachute" and some EXCELLENT slide guitar throughout, even on keef's toofless "salt of the earff", prevent it from being the "worst" of the stones' great albums.
to say it's not the best is reasonable. but to call it "the worst", one would have to do ALOT more arguing than fritz has done already (as if "i listened to it again and it still stinks" - and i know i'm paraphrasing - is enough!).
art
06/27/07 @ 10:51
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
No toes were stepped on as far as I'm concerned, Saturnismine. Thanks for your concern. Keep it coming Townspeople. I'm beat after saying all that I've said. I'm also so proud of the opinions I've stated than I'm not sure if I'll have much more to add, so it's up to the rest of you to do the heavy lifting.
06/27/07 @ 10:57
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
ps., mod, i like your descriptions.
if you watch the godard "sympathy" clips, you'll see where jigsaw puzzle came from. it's charlie's drumming, but much of the "feel" is synthetic: they took charlie's drum tracks on those early slow takes of "sympathy" and spliced them together (which explains why there are so many fills in odd places; he didn't know he was playing "jigsaw puzzle" yet. how could he? it hadn't been written).
the lyrics are also leftover from "sympathy". they have the same metrical figure and would fit in any of the verses of that song, too. they also contain the same kind of imagery... the chorus's reference to a "jigsaw puzzle" is actually an allusion to the piecemeal method the stones employed to create the song. so, no, not purdie or jimmy miller here.
if you watch the godard "sympathy" clips, you'll see where jigsaw puzzle came from. it's charlie's drumming, but much of the "feel" is synthetic: they took charlie's drum tracks on those early slow takes of "sympathy" and spliced them together (which explains why there are so many fills in odd places; he didn't know he was playing "jigsaw puzzle" yet. how could he? it hadn't been written).
the lyrics are also leftover from "sympathy". they have the same metrical figure and would fit in any of the verses of that song, too. they also contain the same kind of imagery... the chorus's reference to a "jigsaw puzzle" is actually an allusion to the piecemeal method the stones employed to create the song. so, no, not purdie or jimmy miller here.
06/27/07 @ 10:57
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
thanks, mod. you are right about "dear doctor"... it should've been reserved for "sicko" status!
one final thought: one of the reasons i like this album so much is that it's part of the stones' initial discovery of their own identity, rather than one that was so attached to the beatles. psychedelia had really thrown these bad boys for a loop, and they let it. they weren't comfortable with flower power.
and for them to come out with that hideously snarling, snorting, downright frightening, even threatening, but no doubt disorienting return to form that is "jumpin' jack" (from these sessions, but not on this album) was quite an achievement. During the Beggars' period, the stones had ALOT of work to do. do they fail sometimes? yes. but some of the territory they cover with ease on subsequent albums is being blazed on this album....and with alot of inspiration to these ears.
in the same way that you have to judge atheletes "in their era", rather than simply dismissing the players of the 40s and 50s because they were smaller, and played against smaller guys, you have to judge Beggars in its context.
this album paved the way for the others that we may rank above it. and to my ears, it manages to hold its own against all of them because it has an air of discovery to it.
again, not "the worst of their best" by any stretch.
one final thought: one of the reasons i like this album so much is that it's part of the stones' initial discovery of their own identity, rather than one that was so attached to the beatles. psychedelia had really thrown these bad boys for a loop, and they let it. they weren't comfortable with flower power.
and for them to come out with that hideously snarling, snorting, downright frightening, even threatening, but no doubt disorienting return to form that is "jumpin' jack" (from these sessions, but not on this album) was quite an achievement. During the Beggars' period, the stones had ALOT of work to do. do they fail sometimes? yes. but some of the territory they cover with ease on subsequent albums is being blazed on this album....and with alot of inspiration to these ears.
in the same way that you have to judge atheletes "in their era", rather than simply dismissing the players of the 40s and 50s because they were smaller, and played against smaller guys, you have to judge Beggars in its context.
this album paved the way for the others that we may rank above it. and to my ears, it manages to hold its own against all of them because it has an air of discovery to it.
again, not "the worst of their best" by any stretch.
06/27/07 @ 11:12
Comment from: mwall [Member]
I'm sticking with Plurb's interpretation on this one. Anyone who thinks that "Dear Doctor" and "Facotry Girl" are in any way trying to literally replicate some kind of backwoods porch sound must not know anything about the backwoods porch sound--and of course the very idea that there is one such sound is its own form of extreme prejudice.
Their inauthenticity has always been central to the Stones appeal, even on their early records. I don't say that the songs you dislike are the best on Beggars but I enjoy them, and the chorus of "Dear Doctor" is very tuneful and light, a pleasing contrast to the words themselves. The Stones take their original sources very loosely, and in a dirty way that's all their own. We both know what he wants out of the factory girl, right? I mean, you don't really think that Jagger thinks that we believe him?
I don't expect Mr. Mod to understand, of course, because he hears all non-rock elements of American music with not only extreme prejudice, but also extreme lack of information. His 10 favorite country songs proved that point pretty clearly.
But whatever: making this argument again bores me just as much as the argument I'm refuting. The claim that the "country-fried" Stones songs suck has been around forever. In fact, it's second only to the claim that the Stones suck "because they can't really play the blues and ripped off a bunch of black musicians."
But let's leave all that aside. Let's talk logic. Logic suggests the following: you can't say something is not as good as something else, unless you compare it to something else. But that hasn't happened here. A review of the songs on Beggars can in no way prove that it's worse than an album that has not also been reviewed in the same way.
Their inauthenticity has always been central to the Stones appeal, even on their early records. I don't say that the songs you dislike are the best on Beggars but I enjoy them, and the chorus of "Dear Doctor" is very tuneful and light, a pleasing contrast to the words themselves. The Stones take their original sources very loosely, and in a dirty way that's all their own. We both know what he wants out of the factory girl, right? I mean, you don't really think that Jagger thinks that we believe him?
I don't expect Mr. Mod to understand, of course, because he hears all non-rock elements of American music with not only extreme prejudice, but also extreme lack of information. His 10 favorite country songs proved that point pretty clearly.
But whatever: making this argument again bores me just as much as the argument I'm refuting. The claim that the "country-fried" Stones songs suck has been around forever. In fact, it's second only to the claim that the Stones suck "because they can't really play the blues and ripped off a bunch of black musicians."
But let's leave all that aside. Let's talk logic. Logic suggests the following: you can't say something is not as good as something else, unless you compare it to something else. But that hasn't happened here. A review of the songs on Beggars can in no way prove that it's worse than an album that has not also been reviewed in the same way.
06/27/07 @ 12:08
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Mwall says:
I'm comparing the Stones to Faces at a few points, sometimes favorably, sometimes not. I'll go one further: listen to any of Rod Stewart's early solo hits, almost all of which use similar "porch blues" sources, and then assess which band did more in a more original and emotionally affecting manner, The Stones or Rod Friggin' Stewart. I'll take Rod with Woody on slide guitar almost every time over the stuff the Stones try to do in that vein.
But let's leave all that aside. Let's talk logic. Logic suggests the following: you can't say something is not as good as something else, unless you compare it to something else.
I'm comparing the Stones to Faces at a few points, sometimes favorably, sometimes not. I'll go one further: listen to any of Rod Stewart's early solo hits, almost all of which use similar "porch blues" sources, and then assess which band did more in a more original and emotionally affecting manner, The Stones or Rod Friggin' Stewart. I'll take Rod with Woody on slide guitar almost every time over the stuff the Stones try to do in that vein.
06/27/07 @ 12:12
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
mwall....nice job. i'm with you on "team logic" (which is why i'd like to hear fritz's thoughts on the other "rock" tunes on beggars).
i don't really care about "dear doctor's" autheticity, or lack thereof, so i'm not measuring it against some original standard.
i just don't really care for that kind of song as much as the other kinds on this album. it's a foray into foreign turf that, all things considered, goes pretty well in the ways you've described above.
i suspect that alot (not all) of the criticism of the stones in country mode comes from "rockists" who, viscerally, react negatively when they hear this kind of tune, and their claim of a lack of authenticity isn't really based on any kind of knowledge.
however, i'll never simply slag the stones for going there. all those english boys wanted to be cowboys (especially ringo!). they couldn't help themselves. the stones' country explorations produced "dead flowers" and "wild horses", too. so it was fruitful.
and i definitely hear them having fun w/ "dear doctor", etc., pitching great hay, if you will.
you're right, bb's gotta be compared to other albums (again, fritz, we're calling....).
i don't really care about "dear doctor's" autheticity, or lack thereof, so i'm not measuring it against some original standard.
i just don't really care for that kind of song as much as the other kinds on this album. it's a foray into foreign turf that, all things considered, goes pretty well in the ways you've described above.
i suspect that alot (not all) of the criticism of the stones in country mode comes from "rockists" who, viscerally, react negatively when they hear this kind of tune, and their claim of a lack of authenticity isn't really based on any kind of knowledge.
however, i'll never simply slag the stones for going there. all those english boys wanted to be cowboys (especially ringo!). they couldn't help themselves. the stones' country explorations produced "dead flowers" and "wild horses", too. so it was fruitful.
and i definitely hear them having fun w/ "dear doctor", etc., pitching great hay, if you will.
you're right, bb's gotta be compared to other albums (again, fritz, we're calling....).
06/27/07 @ 12:22
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
Until this thread, I had never thought about BB as the most 'country' or 'acoustic' Stones album. I guess maybe it is, but I like country music, so I have no problem getting this stuff.
I think the tracks some people don't like (No Expectations, Factory Girl, etc) make the album flow nicely. An album of all Sympathy and Street Fighting just would not work. Peaks and valleys.
The sincerity/inauthenticity criticism also seems to me misguided. I have a problem with it in general, but especially as it relates to the Stones. Lack of sincerity seems essential to what they're doing.
Here's one moment I love on the album. On Street Fighting Man that opening acoustic guitar strum is monstrously huge. Immediate aural gratification. But I love when the electric guitar chords come in underneath the acoustic riff. They almost seem puny at first, but it's exactly the right thing for the song at that point, and the elctric guitar guides the energy of the song to the point where the vocals can come in. Genius.
I think the tracks some people don't like (No Expectations, Factory Girl, etc) make the album flow nicely. An album of all Sympathy and Street Fighting just would not work. Peaks and valleys.
The sincerity/inauthenticity criticism also seems to me misguided. I have a problem with it in general, but especially as it relates to the Stones. Lack of sincerity seems essential to what they're doing.
Here's one moment I love on the album. On Street Fighting Man that opening acoustic guitar strum is monstrously huge. Immediate aural gratification. But I love when the electric guitar chords come in underneath the acoustic riff. They almost seem puny at first, but it's exactly the right thing for the song at that point, and the elctric guitar guides the energy of the song to the point where the vocals can come in. Genius.
06/27/07 @ 12:23
Comment from: mwall [Member]
I'll go one further: listen to any of Rod Stewart's early solo hits, almost all of which use similar "porch blues" sources, and then assess which band did more in a more original and emotionally affecting manner
I'll try to make my point again. I don't think the Stones are trying to be "emotionally affecting" on the numbers in question. I think they're trying to be irreverent and, on Factory Girl, sleazy.
06/27/07 @ 12:49
Comment from: dr. john [Member]
My thoughts on BB:
Sympathy for the Devil out-Dylans Dylan. Jagger ends the chorus with a question, asked sarcastically (like Dylan), but the song is much more direct. Jagger's not playing games, rather he's giving us a history lesson. Probably the only political song where I think Jagger really feels what he's singing.
After that, well how can you sustain such intensity. The Stones knew they couldn't, and so the next songs reflect that.
I have a soft spot for Dear Doctor. They're trying to do a sort of backwoods drama, acting out different characters. They get it all wrong, but the humor of the song is what saves it. I love the line: "Today's the day of the plunge . . . I've been soaking up drink like a sponge."
Parachute Woman is one of my favorites. It's so in your face--from the low fi recording to Jagger's voice that sounds like its beaming in from another planet.
Jigsaw Puzzle--too long, and the chorus seems curiously inert.
Street Fighting Man--has anyone noticed that Jagger overdubs "yes" over his "no" reply to the line "There's just no place for Street Fighting Man"?
Stray Cat Blues--I don't know how the weird psychedelic ending works, but it does.
And here, arguably, is where the album could have ended. Overall, the high points far outweigh the lows. I'm not, finally, sure how to parse the question whether BB is the worst of the great Stones albums. To me, there's such a continuity between BB and Let it Bleed (that gets broken at Sticky Fingers--where they go full out 70s rock)that it's hard, in my mind, to separate the two.
Sympathy for the Devil out-Dylans Dylan. Jagger ends the chorus with a question, asked sarcastically (like Dylan), but the song is much more direct. Jagger's not playing games, rather he's giving us a history lesson. Probably the only political song where I think Jagger really feels what he's singing.
After that, well how can you sustain such intensity. The Stones knew they couldn't, and so the next songs reflect that.
I have a soft spot for Dear Doctor. They're trying to do a sort of backwoods drama, acting out different characters. They get it all wrong, but the humor of the song is what saves it. I love the line: "Today's the day of the plunge . . . I've been soaking up drink like a sponge."
Parachute Woman is one of my favorites. It's so in your face--from the low fi recording to Jagger's voice that sounds like its beaming in from another planet.
Jigsaw Puzzle--too long, and the chorus seems curiously inert.
Street Fighting Man--has anyone noticed that Jagger overdubs "yes" over his "no" reply to the line "There's just no place for Street Fighting Man"?
Stray Cat Blues--I don't know how the weird psychedelic ending works, but it does.
And here, arguably, is where the album could have ended. Overall, the high points far outweigh the lows. I'm not, finally, sure how to parse the question whether BB is the worst of the great Stones albums. To me, there's such a continuity between BB and Let it Bleed (that gets broken at Sticky Fingers--where they go full out 70s rock)that it's hard, in my mind, to separate the two.
06/27/07 @ 12:57
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Hey, if you've been reading closely, you may have noticed that I crossed a line in my initial thoughts on this album. To avoid any confusion, misunderstanding, and unintended offense (some of my musical opinions I'm fine with being potentially offensive), I've made an edit to the initial post. My thoughts remain the same on the album; I hope they're better explained without all the "humorous" self-hatred that I sometimes indulge in.
06/27/07 @ 13:51
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
another thing about BB...
it witnesses Brian Jones' last great contributions to the stones: dr. john's right: that psychedellic outtro really works. and that's brian's influence. it's there in the bridge and the fade of street fightin man, too. the flute on "jigsaw puzzle" is to die for. he gets slagged way too much for being out of it at this point in time.
he adds a layer of interest to the proceedings that subsequent albums don't have...
it witnesses Brian Jones' last great contributions to the stones: dr. john's right: that psychedellic outtro really works. and that's brian's influence. it's there in the bridge and the fade of street fightin man, too. the flute on "jigsaw puzzle" is to die for. he gets slagged way too much for being out of it at this point in time.
he adds a layer of interest to the proceedings that subsequent albums don't have...
06/27/07 @ 14:17
Comment from: mwall [Member]
After that, well how can you sustain such intensity. The Stones knew they couldn't, and so the next songs reflect that.
I have a soft spot for Dear Doctor. They're trying to do a sort of backwoods drama, acting out different characters. They get it all wrong, but the humor of the song is what saves it. I love the line: "Today's the day of the plunge . . . I've been soaking up drink like a sponge."
The Good Doctor is on to something important here; comic relief in some of these "country" numbers. I'd say though that it's not just that they couldn't sustain such intensity, although that's part of it, but also that they're not trying to: one intense song after another would end up being overkill. A Shakespeare trick: very British, wot?
06/27/07 @ 14:19
Comment from: mwall [Member]
By the way, Saturn, did you notice that Sticky Fingers didn't make Mr. Mod's list of great Stones albums at all? Don't doubt that this snub of you is intentional.
06/27/07 @ 14:30
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
ha....
i noticed.
but a snub of ME? nah....
i know lots of people who don't like "sticky fingers".
when i heard it i thought it was the watershed for the entire period that began w/ "jumpin' jack", but for alot of people it's when they "jumped the shark". i can understand why. lots of "stonesiness", the "elegantly wasted" preening,is galvanized in the wake of having to perform the tunes on that album for millions of adoring fans while also turning down offers for blow jobs from truman capote. it's a cock manifesto.
but i think we're remiss if we don't try to forget all that, and just listen to the songs. cheese'm crackers they've got some range on that one...they sound less awkward in each genre they try on for size than they do on the platter du jour.
and they can actually PLAY those songs live, too.
i noticed.
but a snub of ME? nah....
i know lots of people who don't like "sticky fingers".
when i heard it i thought it was the watershed for the entire period that began w/ "jumpin' jack", but for alot of people it's when they "jumped the shark". i can understand why. lots of "stonesiness", the "elegantly wasted" preening,is galvanized in the wake of having to perform the tunes on that album for millions of adoring fans while also turning down offers for blow jobs from truman capote. it's a cock manifesto.
but i think we're remiss if we don't try to forget all that, and just listen to the songs. cheese'm crackers they've got some range on that one...they sound less awkward in each genre they try on for size than they do on the platter du jour.
and they can actually PLAY those songs live, too.
06/27/07 @ 14:40
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Mwall and Saturn, there's much to like about Sticky Fingers, but the only thing that was intentional on my leaving it off the list was focusing the discussion in a manageable way and giving Beggars Banquet its appropriate, if relatively reduced, props.
06/27/07 @ 14:51
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
Saturn, thanks for that technical info on jigsaw puzzle. That thing that sounds vaguely like a synthesizer is Brian on flute? I had no idea.
I hadn't noticed Mr Mod's extended comments before he called attention to them. I can't understand not liking Parachute Woman. I guess it's basically a 12-bar blues, but what atmosphere! And that buzzing slide guitar riff is to die for.
In general this album marks the apotheosis of the Keith slide era. When Mick Taylor came on board he played slide in a completely different style, I think in standard tuning. Keith learned his lessons from Ry Cooder (according to Ry, ripped off his best riffs) and still forged an individual style.
To recall a thread from a few weeks ago ... the best Beggars Banquet song the Stones never recorded? Gone Dead Tran from the Performance soundtrack, featuring Randy Newman singing like his balls are on fire.
I hadn't noticed Mr Mod's extended comments before he called attention to them. I can't understand not liking Parachute Woman. I guess it's basically a 12-bar blues, but what atmosphere! And that buzzing slide guitar riff is to die for.
In general this album marks the apotheosis of the Keith slide era. When Mick Taylor came on board he played slide in a completely different style, I think in standard tuning. Keith learned his lessons from Ry Cooder (according to Ry, ripped off his best riffs) and still forged an individual style.
To recall a thread from a few weeks ago ... the best Beggars Banquet song the Stones never recorded? Gone Dead Tran from the Performance soundtrack, featuring Randy Newman singing like his balls are on fire.
06/27/07 @ 15:02
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
I'm surprised so far, judging from today's poll, that not even one's favorite Faces album outranks Beggars Banquet. I would have thought the results would be slightly closer. Maybe a larger sample size will give a picture closer to what I'd expected.
06/27/07 @ 15:16
Comment from: meanstom [Member]
With all your criticisms of this album, Mod, how is it that you rate this album great? Iff it's all about coherence, as I read you, who's not to say that some album you can't stand isn't great because of its coherence.
I'm with those who love this album for what it is, who can get past the multitude of complaints and assumptions you bring to the table. As others have pointed out, you completely miss the humor and lightness in some of the more Americana songs.
I'm with those who love this album for what it is, who can get past the multitude of complaints and assumptions you bring to the table. As others have pointed out, you completely miss the humor and lightness in some of the more Americana songs.
06/27/07 @ 15:28
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
I think the album is original for its time and has enough great to cool tracks to make it worthwhile and among the strongest of consciously crafted Stones albums. Maybe I miss the lightness, but I don't think I've missed the attempted humor. I guess I just don't find that aspect of the album to be successful (ie, it doesn't make me laugh).
06/27/07 @ 15:58
Comment from: the great 48 [Member]
The Faces could never be arsed to actually record a full album's worth of songs, so even the best Faces records are filled with half-written stinkers. No contest.
06/27/07 @ 16:35
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
whether intentional or not, 48, your use of the word "arsed" is brilliant in the context of the Faces!
06/27/07 @ 16:41
Uugh. I haven't read anything yet, so here's what ya get. But Beggars Banquet is never the worst of anything.
Beggars Banquet……..Oh, man……….Where to start? If there were no Exile on Main St. then this would be Mankind’s Greatest Achievement. Where some white boys from London grabbed American blues and country music, and didn’t know they were essentially mutually exclusive in American culture, and then looked at the landscape left from The Summer of Love and decided that one summer was enough of that shit, it was time to get back to the bid’nis of being a Rock and Roll Band. Which The Stones did. With a vengeance.
The Stones never were the band that did the groundbreaking. They were the band that said, “This is music. It’s all been done before, so if we’re gonna do it, then we’d better do it damned well better than everyone else. Certainly a noble approach for a rock ‘n roll band. So coming out of ’67 with Jumpin’ Jack Flash certainly signaled and end to The Stones fucking around with dance hall numbers, boring freeform freakouts and psychedelia in general. The Stones were going back to the roots and playing music that mattered to them, and if you didn’t like it, then fuck ya.
Sure, they weren’t the only ones coming out of the Big Bong Hit of ’67, but they were the ones that shunned psychedelia the most and looked to the Mississippi Delta, Nashville and finding a way to use those instruments with everything every major rock band had learned about just what a studio could do to get a unique sound, but instead of the psych, they leaned real hard on American country and blues.
The results are unique in rock n’ roll.
Let’s begin at the beginning, shall we? I won’t spend much time on Sympathy For the Devil. Lyrics from Russian literature. Updated and Westernized and as much of a current events lesson as the Stones ever got. Political? Uhh…Yeah. Leftist? What else can rock n’ roll be? Guitar solo? Uhh…yeah. Kinda the defining guitar solo for those that want the solo to be part of the song. Can most lead guitar players play scales? Yeah, apparently. They think when they play them real fast they’ve found something we can all appreciate, even if it’s over a 12 bar blues. Gimme Keith’s solo in Sympathy any day. Keith teaches several lessons here. Number one, be a giving player. You’re in a fucking band. Number two, fit in with the song. Use the space between the notes as well as the notes, and complement the singer if you have the chance. Number three; tear Eric Clapton a new asshole with your cool tone. One of the perfect songs ever carved into wax.
No Expectations. I don’t know that there’s much a Stones fan can say about this. It’s really Brian’s last contribution that really sticks out. Brian’s acoustic slide reaffirms that he may be the only guy in England in the 60’s that truly understands the slide guitar. You can hear Brian’s chair squeak on the recording. Nicky Hopkins helps elevate this one to one of the Stones’ absolute best ballads.
Dear Doctor. Oh yeah, let’s rag on Jagger for silly country lyrics and an affecting drawl. But then let’s go back a little ways in Appalachia and give credit where credit is due – this is for all intents and purposes the kind of song that can be handed down for generations without ever being recorded. No British band outside The Stones understood rural or dirt poor America better than the Stones, and I have no idea why.
Parachute Woman. Keith shows what he’s learned from Brian on slide. Kinda rudimentary, but one of those songs that was done in a circle onto a cassette, and then taken into a studio and pushed hard to sound like some freaky rock n’ roll from 100 years ago. Killer lyrics, guaranteed to make mom squirm and the old man think about the days his heavy throbber was itchin’ to lay a solid rhythm down.
Jigsaw Puzzle. It’s about Mick and Marianne lying on the bed doing jigsaw puzzles. It’s about Mick wishing he could write lyrics like Bob Dylan (who should write a song like that these days). Again, Keith Richards lays down a lead that belongs in the song. Nicky Hopkins adds just enough touch that it seems like the song has just always been there. Then there’s that touch of psychedelic experimentation with the studio – but it’s never in the way of the song.
Side Two ya dirty bitches.
Street Fighting Man. Charlie Watts is playing a portable drum kit that fit in a suitcase and was made in the early thirties. It’s small. Like a child’s practice kit. But it’s just overloaded on this cassette with a few acoustic guitars and Brian’s sitar. Jagger comes up with some of the most disaffected yet sincere lyrics ever. The first chord is one of the true rock n’ roll calls to arms. One fuckin’ chord and you know what this one is.
Prodigal Son deserves mention, too. In 68, plenty of bands were mining the old territory the Stones started out in with American Blues. Grabbing an acoustic song, and making it electric. Changing the lyrics. Adding a long instrumental break. Prodigal Son is Keith, Charlie, Mick and Brian. Reverentially attempting to recreate a Rev. Wilkins gospel blues song, yet while revering the song, playing it as if it meant something far more to them than sounding like The Blues. The Stones treatment of this song, in its original acoustic form, is impeccable.
Stray Cat Blues. Even Jagger admits to the VU influence. The whole sound. Then again, the stones haven’t often been the originators, but they’re almost always the ones that just understand what it’s all about. I saw them play this – I thought I was gonna piss myself. Dig how parts of Brown Sugar evolve from this. Dig Keith’s again, perfectly placed leads.
Factory Girl. Shit – supposedly the throwaway. No how, no way. This is the one girl Mick sings about that’s not beneath him, at least in his eyes. The rich bitches in Lady Jane or Play With Fire? Nowhere near here. The girl in Backstreet Girl? Not here. Mick stands outside in the rain waiting on this girl. She’s not that pretty, and she works too much, but she’s real. I just get that.
Salt of the Earth. I’ll give this one to ya. It’s okay. The lyrics are a little hokey, but musically it’s a gem. I like Keith getting a crack at the mic. But I’m just not that Stones fan that’s blown away by this. It’s my filler song, and so far as those go, it may be the best filler song ever.
1968. December. Beggars Banquet for xmas. I’d have been changed for life.
Beggars Banquet……..Oh, man……….Where to start? If there were no Exile on Main St. then this would be Mankind’s Greatest Achievement. Where some white boys from London grabbed American blues and country music, and didn’t know they were essentially mutually exclusive in American culture, and then looked at the landscape left from The Summer of Love and decided that one summer was enough of that shit, it was time to get back to the bid’nis of being a Rock and Roll Band. Which The Stones did. With a vengeance.
The Stones never were the band that did the groundbreaking. They were the band that said, “This is music. It’s all been done before, so if we’re gonna do it, then we’d better do it damned well better than everyone else. Certainly a noble approach for a rock ‘n roll band. So coming out of ’67 with Jumpin’ Jack Flash certainly signaled and end to The Stones fucking around with dance hall numbers, boring freeform freakouts and psychedelia in general. The Stones were going back to the roots and playing music that mattered to them, and if you didn’t like it, then fuck ya.
Sure, they weren’t the only ones coming out of the Big Bong Hit of ’67, but they were the ones that shunned psychedelia the most and looked to the Mississippi Delta, Nashville and finding a way to use those instruments with everything every major rock band had learned about just what a studio could do to get a unique sound, but instead of the psych, they leaned real hard on American country and blues.
The results are unique in rock n’ roll.
Let’s begin at the beginning, shall we? I won’t spend much time on Sympathy For the Devil. Lyrics from Russian literature. Updated and Westernized and as much of a current events lesson as the Stones ever got. Political? Uhh…Yeah. Leftist? What else can rock n’ roll be? Guitar solo? Uhh…yeah. Kinda the defining guitar solo for those that want the solo to be part of the song. Can most lead guitar players play scales? Yeah, apparently. They think when they play them real fast they’ve found something we can all appreciate, even if it’s over a 12 bar blues. Gimme Keith’s solo in Sympathy any day. Keith teaches several lessons here. Number one, be a giving player. You’re in a fucking band. Number two, fit in with the song. Use the space between the notes as well as the notes, and complement the singer if you have the chance. Number three; tear Eric Clapton a new asshole with your cool tone. One of the perfect songs ever carved into wax.
No Expectations. I don’t know that there’s much a Stones fan can say about this. It’s really Brian’s last contribution that really sticks out. Brian’s acoustic slide reaffirms that he may be the only guy in England in the 60’s that truly understands the slide guitar. You can hear Brian’s chair squeak on the recording. Nicky Hopkins helps elevate this one to one of the Stones’ absolute best ballads.
Dear Doctor. Oh yeah, let’s rag on Jagger for silly country lyrics and an affecting drawl. But then let’s go back a little ways in Appalachia and give credit where credit is due – this is for all intents and purposes the kind of song that can be handed down for generations without ever being recorded. No British band outside The Stones understood rural or dirt poor America better than the Stones, and I have no idea why.
Parachute Woman. Keith shows what he’s learned from Brian on slide. Kinda rudimentary, but one of those songs that was done in a circle onto a cassette, and then taken into a studio and pushed hard to sound like some freaky rock n’ roll from 100 years ago. Killer lyrics, guaranteed to make mom squirm and the old man think about the days his heavy throbber was itchin’ to lay a solid rhythm down.
Jigsaw Puzzle. It’s about Mick and Marianne lying on the bed doing jigsaw puzzles. It’s about Mick wishing he could write lyrics like Bob Dylan (who should write a song like that these days). Again, Keith Richards lays down a lead that belongs in the song. Nicky Hopkins adds just enough touch that it seems like the song has just always been there. Then there’s that touch of psychedelic experimentation with the studio – but it’s never in the way of the song.
Side Two ya dirty bitches.
Street Fighting Man. Charlie Watts is playing a portable drum kit that fit in a suitcase and was made in the early thirties. It’s small. Like a child’s practice kit. But it’s just overloaded on this cassette with a few acoustic guitars and Brian’s sitar. Jagger comes up with some of the most disaffected yet sincere lyrics ever. The first chord is one of the true rock n’ roll calls to arms. One fuckin’ chord and you know what this one is.
Prodigal Son deserves mention, too. In 68, plenty of bands were mining the old territory the Stones started out in with American Blues. Grabbing an acoustic song, and making it electric. Changing the lyrics. Adding a long instrumental break. Prodigal Son is Keith, Charlie, Mick and Brian. Reverentially attempting to recreate a Rev. Wilkins gospel blues song, yet while revering the song, playing it as if it meant something far more to them than sounding like The Blues. The Stones treatment of this song, in its original acoustic form, is impeccable.
Stray Cat Blues. Even Jagger admits to the VU influence. The whole sound. Then again, the stones haven’t often been the originators, but they’re almost always the ones that just understand what it’s all about. I saw them play this – I thought I was gonna piss myself. Dig how parts of Brown Sugar evolve from this. Dig Keith’s again, perfectly placed leads.
Factory Girl. Shit – supposedly the throwaway. No how, no way. This is the one girl Mick sings about that’s not beneath him, at least in his eyes. The rich bitches in Lady Jane or Play With Fire? Nowhere near here. The girl in Backstreet Girl? Not here. Mick stands outside in the rain waiting on this girl. She’s not that pretty, and she works too much, but she’s real. I just get that.
Salt of the Earth. I’ll give this one to ya. It’s okay. The lyrics are a little hokey, but musically it’s a gem. I like Keith getting a crack at the mic. But I’m just not that Stones fan that’s blown away by this. It’s my filler song, and so far as those go, it may be the best filler song ever.
1968. December. Beggars Banquet for xmas. I’d have been changed for life.
06/27/07 @ 23:46
Comment from: mwall [Member]
No British band outside The Stones understood rural or dirt poor America better than the Stones, and I have no idea why.
I'm not sure I know you, 2000, but I hear what you're saying on most of your great post here. Still, Them understood rural and dirt poor better than the Stones. They're not British, so maybe that doesn't count. But The Who understood it better too. And even more so, the Beatles. What the Stones understood was how to mix it all together and rock people's socks off. Rural poor, they know jackshit about. But so what?
06/28/07 @ 00:24
Hey mwall! You know me now. I actually know peopleon the Internets that just use 2K for my name. Feel free.
I don't get where you are saying The Who or Beatles understood rural and dirt poor America more than the Stones. Can you elaborate? Them I can understand, but I never felt their music would have been played by Americans. Beatles, maybe some things but I'd really be interested in your opinions. And The Who - I bet we disagree on that one, but that's okay. I can't think of any Beatles or Who songs that really have many elements of American blues/country that they actually got onto wax.
But the gist of it is that we agree - who cares how the Stones did it, they just Brought The Rock.
I don't get where you are saying The Who or Beatles understood rural and dirt poor America more than the Stones. Can you elaborate? Them I can understand, but I never felt their music would have been played by Americans. Beatles, maybe some things but I'd really be interested in your opinions. And The Who - I bet we disagree on that one, but that's okay. I can't think of any Beatles or Who songs that really have many elements of American blues/country that they actually got onto wax.
But the gist of it is that we agree - who cares how the Stones did it, they just Brought The Rock.
06/28/07 @ 00:34
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
Sorry, guys, but the idea that any Rock Town Baller "understands rural and dirt poor" well enough to judge how well a bunch of British art-school nancy-boys "understand rural and dirt poor" is just laughable.
May the first Townsman or Townswoman who's been rural and dirt poor please stand up and cast the first stone!
May the first Townsman or Townswoman who's been rural and dirt poor please stand up and cast the first stone!
06/28/07 @ 07:26
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
2K wrote:
Great point, great post! I like the fact,l too, that you don't try to skirt around the issue of "authenticity" and "sincerity." Too often, when the Stones' appreciation of and hommages to American musical traditions come up, I get the sense people want to avoid comparisons to the acknowledged greatness of "the real thing," and rather than possibly accept the fact that the Stones' takes on these traditions are "better than" or "worse than" the real thing, they want to set up a scenario in which they imagine the band is taking a removed, purposely cockeyed approach to tradition for some "greater" or "other" reason. I'm never sold on that. I think the Stones are sincere in their stated love for rock 'n roll and pre-rock traditions. Sometimes they do it "better" or "worse" than than the originals, but is there anything to suggest that they try to turn traditions on their head, as some groups have openly done? I don't know. At their best, I think the Stones do "American music" better than many of the originals, building off it slightly, of course.
Anyhow, this is a long way of saying that, although I'm still not a fan of some of this album's songs, I am enjoying all of your defenses of those songs. No joke. Maybe I'll come back to some of these numbers with fresh ears.
The Stones never were the band that did the groundbreaking. They were the band that said, “This is music. It’s all been done before, so if we’re gonna do it, then we’d better do it damned well better than everyone else.
Great point, great post! I like the fact,l too, that you don't try to skirt around the issue of "authenticity" and "sincerity." Too often, when the Stones' appreciation of and hommages to American musical traditions come up, I get the sense people want to avoid comparisons to the acknowledged greatness of "the real thing," and rather than possibly accept the fact that the Stones' takes on these traditions are "better than" or "worse than" the real thing, they want to set up a scenario in which they imagine the band is taking a removed, purposely cockeyed approach to tradition for some "greater" or "other" reason. I'm never sold on that. I think the Stones are sincere in their stated love for rock 'n roll and pre-rock traditions. Sometimes they do it "better" or "worse" than than the originals, but is there anything to suggest that they try to turn traditions on their head, as some groups have openly done? I don't know. At their best, I think the Stones do "American music" better than many of the originals, building off it slightly, of course.
Anyhow, this is a long way of saying that, although I'm still not a fan of some of this album's songs, I am enjoying all of your defenses of those songs. No joke. Maybe I'll come back to some of these numbers with fresh ears.
06/28/07 @ 07:30
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
okay, so 2000 man in the "pro Beggars" camp then? splendid. nice post. i love all the residual noise on brian's slide track on "no expectations"...his slide knocks against the neck, his fingers fumble around. but MAN is that some sweet playing.
however, i don't think there's any need for all superlatives you pile on in your post ("the most" this, or "the only guy who understood" that....whatever dude...these are great songs, great performances...you invite protest when you go overboard like that...and who can measure "most" or "best" in something abstract as music? noone, i tells ya).
2k, mwall, is it really necessary to quibble over whether or not the stones "understood rural america" in order to defend BB against the charge that this is the "worst" of the best stones albums?
the tunes in question suggest that they enjoyed, felt, and therefore understood the music of rural america. no need to go out on a limb and claim that they understood a world with which they had no direct dealings. and even if we argue from a more specifically musical standpoint, aren't we losing the forest for the trees? it's not necessary to defend those tunes on sociological grounds. they're just another form of what british boys had been doing since they could all pick up guitars: emulating their american music making exemplars. no big deal there.
so...just as critics of BB are remiss to single out those songs as a weak spot on sociological grounds, so are its defenders remiss to praise them on sociological grounds.
are they good enjoyable songs? i think so. they're not my faves, but i never skip 'em.
other stuff: 2k, which "parts" of "stray cat" became "brown sugar"? i hear a general kinship, but i'm wondering if there were specific parts of the song you noticed in both?
also, i asked in the thread next door what you meant by "writing a history of rock from (or through?) a stones perspective". i'm still not sure about that. can you explain? again, i'm curious....
however, i don't think there's any need for all superlatives you pile on in your post ("the most" this, or "the only guy who understood" that....whatever dude...these are great songs, great performances...you invite protest when you go overboard like that...and who can measure "most" or "best" in something abstract as music? noone, i tells ya).
2k, mwall, is it really necessary to quibble over whether or not the stones "understood rural america" in order to defend BB against the charge that this is the "worst" of the best stones albums?
the tunes in question suggest that they enjoyed, felt, and therefore understood the music of rural america. no need to go out on a limb and claim that they understood a world with which they had no direct dealings. and even if we argue from a more specifically musical standpoint, aren't we losing the forest for the trees? it's not necessary to defend those tunes on sociological grounds. they're just another form of what british boys had been doing since they could all pick up guitars: emulating their american music making exemplars. no big deal there.
so...just as critics of BB are remiss to single out those songs as a weak spot on sociological grounds, so are its defenders remiss to praise them on sociological grounds.
are they good enjoyable songs? i think so. they're not my faves, but i never skip 'em.
other stuff: 2k, which "parts" of "stray cat" became "brown sugar"? i hear a general kinship, but i'm wondering if there were specific parts of the song you noticed in both?
also, i asked in the thread next door what you meant by "writing a history of rock from (or through?) a stones perspective". i'm still not sure about that. can you explain? again, i'm curious....
06/28/07 @ 07:32
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
Sometimes they do it "better" or "worse" than than the originals, but is there anything to suggest that they try to turn traditions on their head, as some groups have openly done?I don't have it at hand, but isn't there a tabla on Factory Girl?
06/28/07 @ 08:23
Comment from: mwall [Member]
No, Saturn, it's not necessary. But it was another issue that was taken up.
In the Stones, weirdly enough I feel that there's never any sense in their music of the struggles of ordinary daily life: gotta work a job, deal with my girlfriend's dumbass dad, fight other kids on streetcorners. When those rural things come up, they just clearly seem copied from other contexts. The Who's early tunes have much more of a sense that daily life is a struggle to get by. It's not so much there in the Beatles lyrics, although it is a little bit, but there's a definite sense of struggling to make it in their music that I never hear in the Stones.
So I'm not talking about any of hrrundi's "you got to be it to know it" stuff, which I don't buy for even half a second. It's just that the "working boy/man struggling to make it in the world" theme really doesn't enter in to the Stones music. It just doesn't seem to have been an issue for them.
In the Stones, weirdly enough I feel that there's never any sense in their music of the struggles of ordinary daily life: gotta work a job, deal with my girlfriend's dumbass dad, fight other kids on streetcorners. When those rural things come up, they just clearly seem copied from other contexts. The Who's early tunes have much more of a sense that daily life is a struggle to get by. It's not so much there in the Beatles lyrics, although it is a little bit, but there's a definite sense of struggling to make it in their music that I never hear in the Stones.
So I'm not talking about any of hrrundi's "you got to be it to know it" stuff, which I don't buy for even half a second. It's just that the "working boy/man struggling to make it in the world" theme really doesn't enter in to the Stones music. It just doesn't seem to have been an issue for them.
06/28/07 @ 10:04
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
thanks for the response mwall.
i agree, fritz' hardline is pretty restrictive.
fritz, by your own logic, tamio has little claim to the very kinds of rock he likes to prock, and which you so enjoy.
i agree, fritz' hardline is pretty restrictive.
fritz, by your own logic, tamio has little claim to the very kinds of rock he likes to prock, and which you so enjoy.
06/28/07 @ 10:50
Comment from: mwall [Member]
I get the sense people want to avoid comparisons to the acknowledged greatness of "the real thing," and rather than possibly accept the fact that the Stones' takes on these traditions are "better than" or "worse than" the real thing, they want to set up a scenario in which they imagine the band is taking a removed, purposely cockeyed approach to tradition for some "greater" or "other" reason. I'm never sold on that. I think the Stones are sincere in their stated love for rock 'n roll and pre-rock traditions.
This is certainly the issue in question, Mr. Mod. Point blank then: 1) do you think "Girl With Faraway Eyes" is meant to be humorous or taken straight? 2) In "Dear Doctor," when Jagger starts singing in a pseudo-feminine falsetto, is that meant to be humorous or taken straight?
For me, the fact that you would poke fun at traditions you also love, or that maybe you would poke fun at yourself for loving those traditions, doesn't seem a contradiction necessarily. All the ways in which parody is a form of homage also etc.
In any case I think we probably roughly agree on which songs are better or worse on Beggars; we probably just disagree on what those slighter songs are trying to accomplish.
06/28/07 @ 11:18
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Mwall asked:
By that point in their career, with 72,000 17-year-old Brazillian supermodels notched on his belt, is anything Jagger did straight? Come on, I'm not an idiot.
Isn't that the one I said should have been left on the cutting room floor? Of course it's a goof! I've long skipped the song by that point, but the fact that they are having fun with traditions doesn't mean that they did not love those traditions. Read any Stones bio and you'll read stories of Brian and Keith sitting next to the record player, learning their licks by heart and with great reverence. To try to make them seem like some modern-day John Spencer Blues Explosion does them - and you - a disservice.
I agree that we agree on much more than it on the surface. Let's keep working toward consenus. Remember, this was all set up to explore the worst of the great Stones albums. Unless we allow Sticky Fingers onto the list of "great" Stones albums, I see no competition. Those of you who would claim that Let It Bleed should hold that title are merely tired of hearing more outstanding songs played to death on the radio all these years.
1) do you think "Girl With Faraway Eyes" is meant to be humorous or taken straight?
By that point in their career, with 72,000 17-year-old Brazillian supermodels notched on his belt, is anything Jagger did straight? Come on, I'm not an idiot.
2) In "Dear Doctor," when Jagger starts singing in a pseudo-feminine falsetto, is that meant to be humorous or taken straight?
Isn't that the one I said should have been left on the cutting room floor? Of course it's a goof! I've long skipped the song by that point, but the fact that they are having fun with traditions doesn't mean that they did not love those traditions. Read any Stones bio and you'll read stories of Brian and Keith sitting next to the record player, learning their licks by heart and with great reverence. To try to make them seem like some modern-day John Spencer Blues Explosion does them - and you - a disservice.
I agree that we agree on much more than it on the surface. Let's keep working toward consenus. Remember, this was all set up to explore the worst of the great Stones albums. Unless we allow Sticky Fingers onto the list of "great" Stones albums, I see no competition. Those of you who would claim that Let It Bleed should hold that title are merely tired of hearing more outstanding songs played to death on the radio all these years.
06/28/07 @ 11:45
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
2000man sez:
"Factory Girl. Shit – supposedly the throwaway. No how, no way. This is the one girl Mick sings about that’s not beneath him, at least in his eyes. The rich bitches in Lady Jane or Play With Fire? Nowhere near here. The girl in Backstreet Girl? Not here. Mick stands outside in the rain waiting on this girl. She’s not that pretty, and she works too much, but she’s real. I just get that."
And that's EXACTLY the same reason I LOVE the song.
You know what? About 10 years ago, I stopped trying to write songs. I had to many other things to worry about at that point, and the other things were way more important than coming up with a good bridge that 3 or 4 people were going to appreciate. A soon as I stopped writing, I finally began to appreciate pop as a fan again, began hearing it like I did in high school, not analyzing the living beejaysus out of it. The best stuff has absolutely nothing to do with great drum sounds, CBS/preCBS guitars, adherence to songwriting rules, etc, i.e. crap. A good song either tells a good story or it doesn't. Factory Girl is about a guy who's sick and tired of games. All he wants is someone who wants to have a good time. Period. Real basic stuff, but it's something that hit home real hard, especially when I was in high school and college, before I screwed myself over by getting occupied with the necessities of songwriting craft.
Thank God you're up here, 2000 man. More people need to listen with a set of whammo blammo ears.
Your buddy (and I hope you see me as a friend as well),
E. Pluribus
PS -You got your copy in '68? How old were you then? Sorry to be personal, but I real dug your post. Gotta find out more about you!
"Factory Girl. Shit – supposedly the throwaway. No how, no way. This is the one girl Mick sings about that’s not beneath him, at least in his eyes. The rich bitches in Lady Jane or Play With Fire? Nowhere near here. The girl in Backstreet Girl? Not here. Mick stands outside in the rain waiting on this girl. She’s not that pretty, and she works too much, but she’s real. I just get that."
And that's EXACTLY the same reason I LOVE the song.
You know what? About 10 years ago, I stopped trying to write songs. I had to many other things to worry about at that point, and the other things were way more important than coming up with a good bridge that 3 or 4 people were going to appreciate. A soon as I stopped writing, I finally began to appreciate pop as a fan again, began hearing it like I did in high school, not analyzing the living beejaysus out of it. The best stuff has absolutely nothing to do with great drum sounds, CBS/preCBS guitars, adherence to songwriting rules, etc, i.e. crap. A good song either tells a good story or it doesn't. Factory Girl is about a guy who's sick and tired of games. All he wants is someone who wants to have a good time. Period. Real basic stuff, but it's something that hit home real hard, especially when I was in high school and college, before I screwed myself over by getting occupied with the necessities of songwriting craft.
Thank God you're up here, 2000 man. More people need to listen with a set of whammo blammo ears.
Your buddy (and I hope you see me as a friend as well),
E. Pluribus
PS -You got your copy in '68? How old were you then? Sorry to be personal, but I real dug your post. Gotta find out more about you!
06/28/07 @ 11:57
Comment from: dr. john [Member]
I still feel like this discussion is taking place in a critical vacuum. We need another "great" Stones album to which BB can be compared.
06/28/07 @ 12:18
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Dr. John,
Are you denying that there are other great Stones albums, or did you not see the first paragraph after the "jump" (ie, where you click for "More" of the opening piece)? In it, I lay out what I think is a reasonable list of great Stones albums. Check it out.
Are you denying that there are other great Stones albums, or did you not see the first paragraph after the "jump" (ie, where you click for "More" of the opening piece)? In it, I lay out what I think is a reasonable list of great Stones albums. Check it out.
06/28/07 @ 12:33
Comment from: dr. john [Member]
So, you're saying that Some Girls is better than Beggar's Banquet? And Sticky Fingers? W
Well, I disagree strongly. Some Girls, if it weren't seen as their "comeback" album, would be just another sign of the Stone's fading creative energies. I mean, heck, there's more raw power on Goat's Head Soup.
This is the point that needs debating. Who would take Some Girls over Beggar's Banquet?
And what about Sticky Fingers? That record wipes the floor with Some Girls.
Well, I disagree strongly. Some Girls, if it weren't seen as their "comeback" album, would be just another sign of the Stone's fading creative energies. I mean, heck, there's more raw power on Goat's Head Soup.
This is the point that needs debating. Who would take Some Girls over Beggar's Banquet?
And what about Sticky Fingers? That record wipes the floor with Some Girls.
06/28/07 @ 12:50
Comment from: mwall [Member]
Here's what I said:
And here's what Mr. Mod said in response:
All in good fun here, Mr. Mod, but next time you try to put down my position, you might start by agreeing with it a little less.
For me, the fact that you would poke fun at traditions you also love, or that maybe you would poke fun at yourself for loving those traditions, doesn't seem a contradiction necessarily. All the ways in which parody is a form of homage also etc.
And here's what Mr. Mod said in response:
Of course it's a goof! I've long skipped the song by that point, but the fact that they are having fun with traditions doesn't mean that they did not love those traditions. Read any Stones bio and you'll read stories of Brian and Keith sitting next to the record player, learning their licks by heart and with great reverence. To try to make them seem like some modern-day John Spencer Blues Explosion does them - and you - a disservice.
All in good fun here, Mr. Mod, but next time you try to put down my position, you might start by agreeing with it a little less.
06/28/07 @ 13:13
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
No, I don't think Sticky Fingers is even that good, outside of the few great songs, but I do like Some Girls a lot more than BB. I don't care about raw power; I care about tight songs and performances. If I want to see people Performing some of the stuff the Stones got into on BB, I'll buy a ticket to a minstrel show.
I just got off the phone with an old friend who had the perfect analogy to explain my beef with certain Stones songs. I'll let him tell it.
I just got off the phone with an old friend who had the perfect analogy to explain my beef with certain Stones songs. I'll let him tell it.
06/28/07 @ 13:15
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
man o man...
dr. john, i agree with you wholeheartedly.
"some girls" has "tight songs"? play a good deep cut like "whip" or "respectable" before or after "parachute" and you'll see how unimportant "tight" really is.
also, am i the only one who feels like all that needs to be done to defend "sticky" is to provide a track listing? that's the only relentless stones album in their entire canon. not one pooch...even the 'santana jam' at the end of 'knockin' works'. i'll defend it all the way down the line over any stones album you can name. just say the word.
also, 2K, i look forward to your responses to my questions. also, watch it: plurb's got a man crush on you. i don't envy you the day you post an opinion he disagrees with...it'll be diva time.
dr. john, i agree with you wholeheartedly.
"some girls" has "tight songs"? play a good deep cut like "whip" or "respectable" before or after "parachute" and you'll see how unimportant "tight" really is.
also, am i the only one who feels like all that needs to be done to defend "sticky" is to provide a track listing? that's the only relentless stones album in their entire canon. not one pooch...even the 'santana jam' at the end of 'knockin' works'. i'll defend it all the way down the line over any stones album you can name. just say the word.
also, 2K, i look forward to your responses to my questions. also, watch it: plurb's got a man crush on you. i don't envy you the day you post an opinion he disagrees with...it'll be diva time.
06/28/07 @ 13:33
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Hey, maybe "tight" was a poor choice of words; how about words like concise, fast-paced, fun, more or less like garage music? Sure the "comeback" factor helped, but "Miss You", "Some Girls", "Beast of Burden", and some other song I like better than the rest on that album ("When the Whip Comes" down, whatever), although nowhere near as great as the two undeniably great singles from BB, are right by me. You guys can chew on a piece of straw and consider the narrative of "Factory Girl" all you want. Hell, maybe it is "raw power" I'm looking for after all.
06/28/07 @ 13:56
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Mwall wrote:
Now THAT'S a ZINGER! Well done. What's really annoying me now is the sense that folks are privately agreeing with the battle I'm waging yet not chiming in on their own. It's getting hard to say whether I even want their support at this point.
All in good fun here, Mr. Mod, but next time you try to put down my position, you might start by agreeing with it a little less.
Now THAT'S a ZINGER! Well done. What's really annoying me now is the sense that folks are privately agreeing with the battle I'm waging yet not chiming in on their own. It's getting hard to say whether I even want their support at this point.
06/28/07 @ 13:59
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
Hey Art,
Just for the record, 2000man KNOWS his stones. And that is all ye need to know. The other thing I like about him is that he sticks to his guns. He doesn't appear to care one whit if someone disagrees with him. I like that. I see too much bending around these parts. Your walk has begun to look a little funny as of late.
Someone brought up the Faces earlier. Yeah, they've got a handful of nice tracks, but that's it. Years ago, they were more or less regarded as a budget bin band, which makes a lot of sense because that is indeed where their entire catalog could be found. The public of the 70s judged correctly that the value of each of their LPs was worth about a a third of the value of a decently put together LP. The $1.99 price tag was more than fair. At some point or another, Mojo decided to give their entire career a five star reevaluation (and you would too if you owned the magazine and TimeWarner was jamming money into your pockets). All of a sudden they're on the same tier as the Stones. I don't think so. There's good reason why Rod went his own way. There just wasn't a whole hell of a lot to work with. Maybe you think differently. Let me know. I know a few bigwigs at Mojo. They're always looking for writers who don't have any principles and have no problem whatsoever rewriting critical rock history to keep the magazine afloat.
Talk to ya soon,
E. Pluribus
Some Girls? No offense, but Some Girls is more or less the Stones' Band on the Run album.
Just for the record, 2000man KNOWS his stones. And that is all ye need to know. The other thing I like about him is that he sticks to his guns. He doesn't appear to care one whit if someone disagrees with him. I like that. I see too much bending around these parts. Your walk has begun to look a little funny as of late.
Someone brought up the Faces earlier. Yeah, they've got a handful of nice tracks, but that's it. Years ago, they were more or less regarded as a budget bin band, which makes a lot of sense because that is indeed where their entire catalog could be found. The public of the 70s judged correctly that the value of each of their LPs was worth about a a third of the value of a decently put together LP. The $1.99 price tag was more than fair. At some point or another, Mojo decided to give their entire career a five star reevaluation (and you would too if you owned the magazine and TimeWarner was jamming money into your pockets). All of a sudden they're on the same tier as the Stones. I don't think so. There's good reason why Rod went his own way. There just wasn't a whole hell of a lot to work with. Maybe you think differently. Let me know. I know a few bigwigs at Mojo. They're always looking for writers who don't have any principles and have no problem whatsoever rewriting critical rock history to keep the magazine afloat.
Talk to ya soon,
E. Pluribus
Some Girls? No offense, but Some Girls is more or less the Stones' Band on the Run album.
06/28/07 @ 14:40
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
plurb, you ignorant slut.
i agree with your assessment of 2k (although i take exception to all those f bombs and other swear words in his post: my heavens, what ruffian he must be!)
now if only YOU "didn't care one whit" if someone disagrees with you! wouldn't THAT be something?
hell, in this thread, you don't even know what to do with my agreement with you!
sorry if my mez-a-mez opinion of the acoustic tracks on Beggars doesn't suit you. that's my reality, baby blue.
look. eff the hoaky acoustic numbers. they've gotten far too much attention. we still haven't gotten any sort of assessment of "jigsaw", "parachute", "stray cat", or "sympathy" out of fritz. where's he been hidin'?
i've got music for you if you come to cherry street.
art
i agree with your assessment of 2k (although i take exception to all those f bombs and other swear words in his post: my heavens, what ruffian he must be!)
now if only YOU "didn't care one whit" if someone disagrees with you! wouldn't THAT be something?
hell, in this thread, you don't even know what to do with my agreement with you!
sorry if my mez-a-mez opinion of the acoustic tracks on Beggars doesn't suit you. that's my reality, baby blue.
look. eff the hoaky acoustic numbers. they've gotten far too much attention. we still haven't gotten any sort of assessment of "jigsaw", "parachute", "stray cat", or "sympathy" out of fritz. where's he been hidin'?
i've got music for you if you come to cherry street.
art
06/28/07 @ 16:22
Glad to see youse guys enjoyed my little post. It gave me an excuse to put on Beggars Banquet, remind myself of just exactly why it is that I have over 1000 Stones cd's and a crate of vinyl, and for the cherry on top, it gave me an excuse to drink all the beer in the fridge. Except the wheat beer. I don't like that stuff.
Saturn - I'm not ducking your questions. I just didn't turn on the PC until now. So far as understanding rural America to pull off a song that sounds like it came from rural America, yeah. i think it's important. Hrrundi doesn't know where I came from (NE Ohio). My mother, however does come from rural America, and grew up on a farm. Her father lost a farm in the Depression, and managed to start a dairy that made it a little while. He wound up a fairly successful grape farmer. I'd move there in a second, but there's no work and almost everyone that lives there now is on welfare. So no, I'm not a poor dirt farmer, but I've certainly heard enough about what it's like and met enough of them to understand and empathize with them.
I'm not a big blues fan cuz I don't have the blues, I'm not black and I can't much empathize with the music. Partly because I don't understand the life behind it.
Where do I hear Brown Sugar in Stray Cat? It's something that grabbed me when I got an SACD player and ABKCO released BB at the correct speed. Right around the minute mark the rythym guitar (one of them, it sounds like an army of guitars to me), and piano sound like the same underlying bits at right around the minute mark in Brown Sugar, and then again in the outro. Then again, Keith is the greenest guy in the world, and he recycles everything he does. It just depends what they bring up in the mix.
"Rewriting rock and roll history from a Stones perspective" is just a bit of hyperbole on my part, but I love hyperbole. It's big, it's gaudy and it's usually overkill. Isn't that what rock and roll is all about? You'll find my tastes are incredibly pedestrian. I have no time for jazz or classical music. I tried, I just don't care and it doesn't move me. Gimme "Five strings, three chords and one asshole" and I'm in heaven. Really. It's that good, so it should be spoken of that passionately and there's nothing quite like a touch of fanboy adoration to make it that much sweeter.
e-plurb - I like you fine, too. I really do know my Stones. I didn't like them once, long ago. I know why, too. But I think they are the band that best embraces rock and roll in a path that I can see that goes back to Buddy Holly and Chuck Berry. Excuse me, I'm going to hit repeat on the beginning of Can't You Hear Me Knocking and no one's home. I think the neighbors should hear this. You're right on at least one account - I stand behind my opinions. They're mine, and mine alone. They are the result of my expertise in the only thing I'm an expert in - knowing what I like. I like rock and roll. I like it loud. I like Fender guitars. I like bands that fall apart sometimes. Stay With Me is about the coolest thing The Faces ever did. That's cooler than almost anyone on the planet ever gets to be. So I'll generally listen to them, at least the two albums I have.
"The only, "the most" etc. are where things get delineated. If music is too emotional to be measured on any levels where something can't be measured as "the best," then it's all the same and it's all great or it's all crap. No need to discuss any of it. Wait till we talk about something I detest!
And I'll try to watch it with the F bombs, but I generally talk that way and I never notice when people swear, me included.
Saturn - I'm not ducking your questions. I just didn't turn on the PC until now. So far as understanding rural America to pull off a song that sounds like it came from rural America, yeah. i think it's important. Hrrundi doesn't know where I came from (NE Ohio). My mother, however does come from rural America, and grew up on a farm. Her father lost a farm in the Depression, and managed to start a dairy that made it a little while. He wound up a fairly successful grape farmer. I'd move there in a second, but there's no work and almost everyone that lives there now is on welfare. So no, I'm not a poor dirt farmer, but I've certainly heard enough about what it's like and met enough of them to understand and empathize with them.
I'm not a big blues fan cuz I don't have the blues, I'm not black and I can't much empathize with the music. Partly because I don't understand the life behind it.
Where do I hear Brown Sugar in Stray Cat? It's something that grabbed me when I got an SACD player and ABKCO released BB at the correct speed. Right around the minute mark the rythym guitar (one of them, it sounds like an army of guitars to me), and piano sound like the same underlying bits at right around the minute mark in Brown Sugar, and then again in the outro. Then again, Keith is the greenest guy in the world, and he recycles everything he does. It just depends what they bring up in the mix.
"Rewriting rock and roll history from a Stones perspective" is just a bit of hyperbole on my part, but I love hyperbole. It's big, it's gaudy and it's usually overkill. Isn't that what rock and roll is all about? You'll find my tastes are incredibly pedestrian. I have no time for jazz or classical music. I tried, I just don't care and it doesn't move me. Gimme "Five strings, three chords and one asshole" and I'm in heaven. Really. It's that good, so it should be spoken of that passionately and there's nothing quite like a touch of fanboy adoration to make it that much sweeter.
e-plurb - I like you fine, too. I really do know my Stones. I didn't like them once, long ago. I know why, too. But I think they are the band that best embraces rock and roll in a path that I can see that goes back to Buddy Holly and Chuck Berry. Excuse me, I'm going to hit repeat on the beginning of Can't You Hear Me Knocking and no one's home. I think the neighbors should hear this. You're right on at least one account - I stand behind my opinions. They're mine, and mine alone. They are the result of my expertise in the only thing I'm an expert in - knowing what I like. I like rock and roll. I like it loud. I like Fender guitars. I like bands that fall apart sometimes. Stay With Me is about the coolest thing The Faces ever did. That's cooler than almost anyone on the planet ever gets to be. So I'll generally listen to them, at least the two albums I have.
"The only, "the most" etc. are where things get delineated. If music is too emotional to be measured on any levels where something can't be measured as "the best," then it's all the same and it's all great or it's all crap. No need to discuss any of it. Wait till we talk about something I detest!
And I'll try to watch it with the F bombs, but I generally talk that way and I never notice when people swear, me included.
06/28/07 @ 18:09
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
swear all you want, 2k. i was kidding.
thanks for your responses on all counts.
if those songs have a ring of truth for you, given your background, it says alot about the stones' ability to interpret a genre.
question: 'factory girl' or 'sweet virginia'?
also: '19th Nervous Breakdown' or 'The Last Time'?
finally: 'sticky fingers' or 'some girls'?
(you already know where i stand on this last one)
thanks for your responses on all counts.
if those songs have a ring of truth for you, given your background, it says alot about the stones' ability to interpret a genre.
question: 'factory girl' or 'sweet virginia'?
also: '19th Nervous Breakdown' or 'The Last Time'?
finally: 'sticky fingers' or 'some girls'?
(you already know where i stand on this last one)
06/29/07 @ 07:19
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
ps: i gotta credit andyr with the idea for the "this" or "that" questions above. he was chuckin' 'em around at the rth gathering last night...
06/29/07 @ 08:29
question: 'factory girl' or 'sweet virginia'?
Exile on Main St. trumps all, all the time. So I gotta go with Sweet Virginia. While Exile trumps all, all the time, there is a Joker in the deck that can show up and obliterate things now and again.
also: '19th Nervous Breakdown' or 'The Last Time'?
I'm going with 19th Nervous Breakdown. For a number of reasons, but in the fade out did you ever notice it sounds like there's a really serious tape drag? Or something really bad like that? I think it's cool that they just left it there.
finally: 'sticky fingers' or 'some girls'?
Some Girls for me. Stones fans generally speak of "The Big Four," and it's Exile, Beggars Banquet, Let It Bleed and Sticky Fingers. I think Sticky Fingers is just a little too mellow and while I can be blown away one minute by Mick Taylor (Sway), the next I'm thinking "why doesn't this ever stop?" in Can't You Hear Me Knockin'. But for me there's really six albums that I think you're really splitting hairs with, and I'd toss Get Your Ya Ya's Out into the mix. They all have their flaws, but they're just so minor. That was one hell of a run, and outside of their singles era I think they more than proved their comparisons to The Beatles, and I don't think any other band can really even be mentioned in the same breath and be taken all that seriously. One day I'll tell you all why Stome Girls ranks so high for me outside of the songs.
Exile on Main St. trumps all, all the time. So I gotta go with Sweet Virginia. While Exile trumps all, all the time, there is a Joker in the deck that can show up and obliterate things now and again.
also: '19th Nervous Breakdown' or 'The Last Time'?
I'm going with 19th Nervous Breakdown. For a number of reasons, but in the fade out did you ever notice it sounds like there's a really serious tape drag? Or something really bad like that? I think it's cool that they just left it there.
finally: 'sticky fingers' or 'some girls'?
Some Girls for me. Stones fans generally speak of "The Big Four," and it's Exile, Beggars Banquet, Let It Bleed and Sticky Fingers. I think Sticky Fingers is just a little too mellow and while I can be blown away one minute by Mick Taylor (Sway), the next I'm thinking "why doesn't this ever stop?" in Can't You Hear Me Knockin'. But for me there's really six albums that I think you're really splitting hairs with, and I'd toss Get Your Ya Ya's Out into the mix. They all have their flaws, but they're just so minor. That was one hell of a run, and outside of their singles era I think they more than proved their comparisons to The Beatles, and I don't think any other band can really even be mentioned in the same breath and be taken all that seriously. One day I'll tell you all why Stome Girls ranks so high for me outside of the songs.
06/29/07 @ 10:29
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
Thanks, 2k.
i'm with ya on "virginia" (though i don't think "exile trumps all"...we'll get into that someday, i'm sure).
i always heard the lag at the end of 19th Nervous Breakdown, too. i always thought it was charlie getting tired combined with wyman dragging out those bass swoops a little too long (he definitely wasn't in the habit of having to move his pick hand that fast).
the version of "live with me" on "yayas" is blistering. but i just can't get behind alot of the other stuff on there.
the mod will be delighted to hear your choice of "somegirls" over "sticky fingers". yeah...if you don't like mellow, then "sticky" loses points. but man, it finds them at their most diverse at the same time their IDENTITY is firing on all cylinders. "moonlight mile" is SO STONES, at the same time that it's pulling from Hendrix songs like "Waterfalls" and "wind Cries Mary"...rare sources for the Stones.
Some Girls sounds less fussy, more fun, for sure.
But shit, dude, Sticky's got "BITCH", "Brown Sugar", and "Sway", too! and sure, the "santana jam" on "knockin'" gets a little lost, but that doesn't mean we have to forget how fucking GREAT the first part of that song is. fun fun fun.
outta here til tomorrow....
mod, you'll be hearing from me then...
i'm with ya on "virginia" (though i don't think "exile trumps all"...we'll get into that someday, i'm sure).
i always heard the lag at the end of 19th Nervous Breakdown, too. i always thought it was charlie getting tired combined with wyman dragging out those bass swoops a little too long (he definitely wasn't in the habit of having to move his pick hand that fast).
the version of "live with me" on "yayas" is blistering. but i just can't get behind alot of the other stuff on there.
the mod will be delighted to hear your choice of "somegirls" over "sticky fingers". yeah...if you don't like mellow, then "sticky" loses points. but man, it finds them at their most diverse at the same time their IDENTITY is firing on all cylinders. "moonlight mile" is SO STONES, at the same time that it's pulling from Hendrix songs like "Waterfalls" and "wind Cries Mary"...rare sources for the Stones.
Some Girls sounds less fussy, more fun, for sure.
But shit, dude, Sticky's got "BITCH", "Brown Sugar", and "Sway", too! and sure, the "santana jam" on "knockin'" gets a little lost, but that doesn't mean we have to forget how fucking GREAT the first part of that song is. fun fun fun.
outta here til tomorrow....
mod, you'll be hearing from me then...
06/29/07 @ 11:26
Comment from: dr. john [Member]
I've gained a stronger appreciation for Sticky Fingers, as they really increase their range (as you said, Art). Not easy at all, when you're coming off two masterpieces (in my opinion).
But the one song I have troubles with is "I Got the Blues." Jagger's vocals are steady on, but the whole thing seems too stylized. It just doesn't seem to fit with the overall attitude of the record. It also pales in comparison with the ragged soul numbers on on Exile, Let it Loose and Shine a Light.
And, yeah, that's cool how Moonlight Mile is pulling from Hendrix. I think that has a lot to do with Mick Taylor who's doing all the guitar work (Richards is absent on this one).
But the one song I have troubles with is "I Got the Blues." Jagger's vocals are steady on, but the whole thing seems too stylized. It just doesn't seem to fit with the overall attitude of the record. It also pales in comparison with the ragged soul numbers on on Exile, Let it Loose and Shine a Light.
And, yeah, that's cool how Moonlight Mile is pulling from Hendrix. I think that has a lot to do with Mick Taylor who's doing all the guitar work (Richards is absent on this one).
06/29/07 @ 12:04
Comment from: dr. john [Member]
Hey Mod,
It seems when you're pressured, you have a tendency to issue forth the "minstrelsy" argument. But it doesn't really mean what you think it means. "Minstrelsy is not the opposite of authentic, rather it questions the very distinctions between authentic and inauthentic.
And here's the crux of the problem. It is very hard to define authenticity in music. As mwall keeps pointing out, the fact that Jagger is cracking wise behind his country personna, doesn't ruin the show.
Now you're right to call bs on say "da blloz exorcist" (Black Snake Moan) as it strains ridiculously to manufacture deep feelings of pain and suffering. But it's not always so a easy call to make.
It seems when you're pressured, you have a tendency to issue forth the "minstrelsy" argument. But it doesn't really mean what you think it means. "Minstrelsy is not the opposite of authentic, rather it questions the very distinctions between authentic and inauthentic.
And here's the crux of the problem. It is very hard to define authenticity in music. As mwall keeps pointing out, the fact that Jagger is cracking wise behind his country personna, doesn't ruin the show.
Now you're right to call bs on say "da blloz exorcist" (Black Snake Moan) as it strains ridiculously to manufacture deep feelings of pain and suffering. But it's not always so a easy call to make.
06/29/07 @ 12:11
Comment from: chickenfrank [Member]
Put me in the "it's great" camp. Love the one's we all love; Sympathy, Street Fighting, Stray Cat. Love the one's people claim the Stones don't have the biography to sing; Prodigal, Dear Doctor (I think it's fucking hilarious), Parachute. Some great rock is sincere and revelatory, and some great rock is just great acting and adopting a character. Stones play great country characters. There are plenty of examples of people coming out of completely different life circumstances than what gave birth to a genre that make great music in that genre. I'll take Clash reggae over Jamaican reggae every time. And Fritz, you must admit Paul Simon South African music is the best South African music ever.
06/30/07 @ 11:36
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
Hey, Chickenfrank!
I most certainly do *not* have to admit that "Graceland" is the best South African music ever! That's not to say it's not good, but -- well, it's not really South African music, anyway, is it? It's a real hodge-podge blend of American and African stuff, which I would say is more American/Western than African, by a long shot. And in any case, I absolutely prefer my Soul Brothers albums from the era. I ripped a comp for Mr. Mod a while ago, and as I recall he iked it quite well. Perhaps he can chime in.
Fuck Rick Wakeman -- Moses Ngwenya is a keyboard GOD!
I most certainly do *not* have to admit that "Graceland" is the best South African music ever! That's not to say it's not good, but -- well, it's not really South African music, anyway, is it? It's a real hodge-podge blend of American and African stuff, which I would say is more American/Western than African, by a long shot. And in any case, I absolutely prefer my Soul Brothers albums from the era. I ripped a comp for Mr. Mod a while ago, and as I recall he iked it quite well. Perhaps he can chime in.
Fuck Rick Wakeman -- Moses Ngwenya is a keyboard GOD!
06/30/07 @ 12:42
Comment from: chickenfrank [Member]
Hrrund, just needling you because you weren't allowing us suburban boys from having legit opinions of rural life. Or opinions about which songs "sound or feel" real, and which ones "sound or feel" phony. Stay tuned for my 15 song solo CD. Every song is about the travails of a middle-class average boy growing up in a stable 2 parent home watching Gilligan's Island reruns. It's TOTALLY authentic. No artifice.
06/30/07 @ 15:07
Comment from: mwall [Member]
Stay tuned for my 15 song solo CD. Every song is about the travails of a middle-class average boy growing up in a stable 2 parent home watching Gilligan's Island reruns.
Man, even the song titles on this CD must be great. Is the whole work a song cycle, a rock opera, what?
Of course, I'm the guy who genuinely thinks "Mother's Car" is a neglected classic, so what do I know?
06/30/07 @ 17:04
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
Mwall, I seem to remember a Bob's Revenge song you wrote lyrics for entitled "Suburban Kid"...
06/30/07 @ 17:30
Comment from: mwall [Member]
Well, I was only trying to recapture the "Mother's Car" magic.
Mark
Mark
06/30/07 @ 18:04
Comment from: chickenfrank [Member]
I didn't know you wrote those lyrics! Cool. If you honor me enough by even remembering Mother's Car, you are going to LOVE track 3 on the album. "Ginger or Maryanne, There's No Wrong Answer"
Speaking (Writing) of songwriting. E-Plurb, F you! You've done the world a disservice by giving up on songwriting. I'm so glad you enjoy listening to music more now! Anyone that knows his "work" will agree. Don't you share songwriting credit on Aint It A Crime??? I pushed hard for Nixon's Head to cover that Autumn Carousel song. I'd give a nut to have written that.
Speaking (Writing) of songwriting. E-Plurb, F you! You've done the world a disservice by giving up on songwriting. I'm so glad you enjoy listening to music more now! Anyone that knows his "work" will agree. Don't you share songwriting credit on Aint It A Crime??? I pushed hard for Nixon's Head to cover that Autumn Carousel song. I'd give a nut to have written that.
06/30/07 @ 18:17
Comment from: epluribusgergely [Member]
Send me your address. I've got something new for you to listen to.
Hope all is well,
E. Pluribus
Hope all is well,
E. Pluribus
06/30/07 @ 20:06
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