Oh, come now, Mr. Mod. What you seem to be asking, is, is there room for complicated bass drum playing in the kind of rock song in which complicated bass drum playing is never used and is uncharacteristic? Don't push, man. Let a real question come to you. They can't all be, "What if the Beatles..."

Listen up, Slocum, someone told me just yesterday that I need to listen to the music, that complicated kick drums do occur in a number of rock 'n roll songs I love. He did not elaborate, and the statement flew by me at that time, but I had a restless night's sleep when the claim crept back into my consciousness. I need an answer. Is there a drummer in the house?

Does it have to be a human drummer? I'm thinking of New Order's Blue Monday.

Hey Mr Mod. Bravo to the person who made that statement. One question - what do you mean by complicated? Number of beater hits, the pattern?

I'll get my list together, but I'll start off and say that *our* own song Let it Go would qualify.

Much more

You know what new "modern" song has a great, and i would say complicated, bass drum pattern -"American Idiot"

First of all, Townsman Andyr, inclusion of any song with a drum part that you arrange is excluded. Sorry I had to add a late exclusion. I thought you knew better than to include your own monsters to this thread!

By complicated, I mean any kick drum pattern that a normal person couldn't "hum" out with a little concentration. For instance, it could be a kick drum pattern that shifts every two measures or a kick drum pattern in which the drummer picks up every possible accent that's suggested by the guitars, bass, and vocals! Now I'm getting steamed just thinking about this. Is there a drummer in the house, or at least someone who can move beyond musical nepotism?

Thanks for the suggestion of a song you did not arrange, Andyr:) Sadly, I don't really know that song. I'll have to keep my ears open for it someday.

My 2cents...

Many a punk-rock/indie/college-rock band's drummers have been called on the carpet by a producer/engineer for not playing exactly what the bass player is playing rhythm-wise. But then you had many of the same bands' bass players not playing good ol' root notes like the "classic-rock" dudes played.

This question must exclude all the metal bands out there that use double kicks right?

Mrclean, I do not have a problem with drummers and bassists not linking up completely, but that's a good point to raise. In fact, when the drummer and bassist are too in sync, why bother with the bassist? Why not sync up sampled root notes to the kick drum?

Yes, metal bands that use double kick drums are excluded because they're not really playing rock 'n roll songs. I'm sure Aerosmith has some songs with tricky kick drum parts that might qualify, though. They're a poor man's Led Zeppelin at their best, and I only excluded Zeppelin.

What about the cool stuff Simon Phillips did on 801 - Live? Like on East of Asteroid or Diamond Head. He's got two kick drums and it seems that they aren't just for show.

I agree that Mrclean makes a great point. My theory has always been that there are two approaches to bass drums - you either link up with the bass OR the rhythm guitar. When the bass drum links up with the rhythm guitar, it allows for more active/complex bass drum patterns.

Here are some more songs (all from The Clash) Mr Mod likes that he didn't realize had active/complex bass drum parts:

Hateful
Death or Glory
Tommy Gun
Safe European Home

And if you hadn't realized it, I was the one who made the comment to Mr Mod in the first place!

On to Elvis C and XTC for more evidence

2000 Man asked:

What about the cool stuff Simon Phillips did on 801 - Live? Like on East of Asteroid or Diamond Head. He's got two kick drums and it seems that they aren't just for show.

Man, I haven't heard that album in ages, and I don't recall those specific songs. The last time I listened to that album, I was turned off by its typical "live '70s album sludge sound." Are they actually rock 'n roll songs, with vocals, or are they two of Manzanera's instrumental workouts? I apologize for my ignorance.

Andyr, I agree with what you say about linking up with the rhythm guitar as an option. Are there times when the drums should link up with the rhythm guitar, the bass, and the hum from the air conditioner simultaneously?

I'll have to revisit The Clash songs you list. This is a MUCH better opening tactic, I must say. I figured Topper would come into play. I've got "Safe European Home" here with me in work. I'll let you know what I think. Thanks.

James Brown's Star Time box has been my gym Ipod listening this week, and it's been really hard not to Give It Up Or Turn It Loose right there in front of everybody. That song and any number of other greats from that era like I Can't Stand Myself have complicated bass drum patterns. Are you going to rulify those out as not 'rock and roll'?

OK, I see what you mean about "Safe European Home" but most of the change-ups are to accompany the strange structure of the song and the instrumental linking passages. Good example, though. This is a song that calls for the kick drum work that Topper provides.

BigSteve, I thought it was pretty clear that I'd rule out the Godfather of Funk when I excluded funk and prog-rock songs from the discussion. That stuff often needs to be heavy on the foot.

I'm presently listening to The Buzzcocks' "Real World", which probably qualifies as a great rock 'n roll song with a kick drum pattern that is too busy for me to really process. No problems result from my lack of processing skills here.

When I do get thrown off is when the kick drum does "fills" that could be better taken by drums up at arms level. Bev Bevan, who was featured in our first Is There a Drummer in the House, often used his kick drum to pull off plodding fills in Move songs that might have been more exciting and swinging had he used his arms. I also don't like when the complicated kick drum pattern stands out like a sore thumb, preventing me from feeling the buzz of a song. I can't think of a particular example of a song with this sort of disruptive pattern right now, but when I do I'll point it out.

This is very helpful. Keep it coming!

He's the Godfather of Soul, but anyway ... New Order is neither funk nor prog, and I think Blue Monday is undeniably a great record. The complicated stuff is fills though, rather than the basic pattern.

Isn't this kind of what always happens -- a seemingly open-ended question, but almost all of the proposed answers end up getting disqualified?

How about Black and White by the dB's? The bass drum pattern changes quite a bit throughout the song. I'm leaving Stands for Decibels on, and I'm finding Will Rigby is very free with the kick syncopations, and in general the drums follow the changing rhythm patterns in the arrangements more than is typical. I don't remember whether you're a dBphile or not, but I like 'busy' drums.

I know he's the Godfather of Soul, but he's allowed to double as the Godfather of Funk. What's funk but 90% JB and 10% loosening of JB's rules?

Isn't this kind of what always happens -- a seemingly open-ended question, but almost all of the proposed answers end up getting disqualified?

No. Let me demonstrate...

How about Black and White by the dB's?

GREAT example, as is all of Rigby's drumming (which I love) on those first two dB's records. So there:P

Townspeople, as much as Mr. Moderator likes to think he's right, he's more than willing to learn that he's just as often wrong. we all might learn something in the process.

Mr. Mod, those are just two of the songs I always remember the titles of. I actually have it with me, so I checked, and they're instrumentals. Baby's on Fire has some pretty thumping fast double bass going on it, and I think that's a cool song. But maybe the case could be made that they're a prog band. I dunno. That random picture of Phil in his freaky fly glasses you put up in the corner now and then makes me think of 801 a lot. That live album is the first thing I ever bought because I loved the cover and had never heard. It's a tactic that's worked great for me ever since.

I've been listening to it on my laptop for a bit. I don't know if Simon Phillips is doing anything complex with his feet, as I don't know if it's hard to use two kick drums or not, but he's cool as hell and sounds like he's always working. I'm changing my tune and saying it's not prog rock at all. It's just arty crap and I like it.

on the yahoogroups list, i bitched about Anton Fig's completely embarrassing treatment of Al Jackson Jr.'s drum parts when the former replaced the latter in Booker T and the MG's.

but that's an extreme example of the misapplication of a lack of kick drum restraint.

mod, your question presumes universal definitions of "complicated" (which i see we've already gotten into) and "great rock and roll song".

the fact that you had to disqualify zeppelin already suggests that there IS room for complex uses of the kick drum in "great rock and roll songs".

and the fact that someone suggested that you listen closer to the kick drum in other stuff suggests that you might not realize how complicated some of the stuff that's out there really is.

there are non-repeating, improvised, irregular patterns in charlie and ringo's parts, before we ever even approach the mayhem of ginger baker or keith moon. good drummers feel a song, don't play like robots and will allow the foot to get into the mixing up of things in ways that we don't even notice. on the surface it all sounds simple when it's really not.

so maybe the better way to look at it would be to turn this whole thing inside out.

asking for examples of great rock and roll songs with room for complicated kick drum parts will just lead to another squinting contest wherein we argue about whether or not a certain part is complicated or whether said arguer is really listening closely enough.

maybe we should ask instead:

are there examples of rock and roll songs that strike us as great but where the drummer is playing a complicated kick drum part for which he (and his mates) clearly didn't have the ears to find room in the song.

in other words are there great rock and roll songs with the kick drum hanging out all over the edges in a way that makes us notice it too much?

2K, I'm cool with "Baby's On Fire" as a rock 'n roll song (LOVE IT, in fact), but I consider the drumming in that one busy more than complex. It works like a charm regardless. Glad you dig that Manzanera shot. I get a kick out of it every time it pops up. He's my favorite, humorous guitarist. I do think there's conscious humor in his playing. And it kicks ass!

Saturnismine, do you need a tissue to go with all that whining, or are you gonna answer my question and help me reach a greater understanding? You may learn something yourself, in the process.

You brought up Ginger Baker, who is probably the worst culprit in the use of unecessarily complicated kick drum in rock/pop songs. He's already got tons of toms - why does he feel the need to play fills on his stinking kick drums?

the fact that you had to disqualify zeppelin already suggests that there IS room for complex uses of the kick drum in "great rock and roll songs".

Saturn, I think they were disqualified simply because they HAVE no great songs;P

I think all of us in this thread can proudly wear our pince nez today, though.

Mr. Mod, Phil is one of my guitar heroes from back when I was riding my two speed paper route bike. I liked him, Rick Derringer and Rory Gallagher and Mick Rogers (because he played guitar on Manfred Mann's Solar Fire, which I had worn out three times by the time I turned 18). Phil really does have a great touch and no one sounds quite like him.

no whining here. just take a deep breath and read what i was saying. imagine a calm tone, not an argumentative one.

i found your question and the comments after it very interesting. i posted lengthily as a result.

care to man up and converse with me regarding that post?

mod, i want to add something one of my last points...that last question i described, where i "turn your question inside out" or something like that:

i wrote: are there great rock and roll songs with the kick drum hanging out all over the edges in a way that makes us notice it too much?

i wanted to add, are there great rock and roll songs where a conspicuously hyperactive kick is what MAKES the song great?

i was thinking of "Little Miss Lover", which you may disqualify if you'd like.

dude, i AM sincere in my interest in the topic. i really must demur to your handling of that last post i wrote.

Saturnismine, "Little Miss Lover" is a Hendrix song, isn't it? If so, judging by my vague memory of it, it's not one of my faves, but Mitch Mitchell was a highly skilled player in that trio format. He could get away with a lot. In fact, drummers in rock trios have more room to dick around on the kick drum. I was listening to the second PJ Harvey album today, and the drumming on it is a style I pretty much hate, but it works in that context. The endless kick drum fills add to the menacing, macho stance of Harvey's music.

In short, sure, there are instances when that busy kick drum can help push a song along. I'm coming around to acknowledging that more freely, but I'm still not too surprised at the dearth of examples of times when this style works in a rock 'n roll song. Earlier today a Townsman called me to tell me he'd be posting "80 examples" of songs I love that have bass drums I'd object to if I could discern what was going on.

I look forward to continued enlightenment on this topic.

80 songs! christ!

i suspect that there's a different definition of "complicated" in the mind of someone who has 80 examples of "great rock and roll songs" with busy kicks.

i thought maybe Little Miss Lover would be disqualified on the grounds that it's acutally funk.

to be clear, i'm generally with you on this one.

but i have to allude to practical experiences to make clear the reasons why: when simon was the photon band's drummer, i was in a constant battle with myself (and him). on the one hand, i wanted it to sound like there was a hurricane in the general vicinity of the drum kit. but on the other hand, i wanted to serve the songs, and the arrangements i had in mind.

so i was often caught trying to make him "un-busy" his parts in general, but especially his foot. some of the most rewarding stuff happened when he bent to my my attempts to "charli-fy" his playing, but his instincts had him continuing with various ankle-oriented irregularities under the guise of simplicity.

another example of what i think is a "great" rock and roll song that practically features a "lead" kick drum, is "lust for life". it's not irregular, but it is busy.

the kick drum is like a volatile explosive substance. too much of it, and the whole shithouse blows up.

but if there's ambitious kick playing in the context of that elusive "arrangement that works", the results can be really special, much moreso than songs with conservative uses of the foot.

Saturnismine is correct. It has to serve the song - sometimes more kick is good, othertimes not. You can't be absolute about these things. It's not like we are talking about the width between hi-hats, jeez.

#1 of 80 - "Down On The Street" - The Stooges. The syncopated but active bass drum is offset by the 1/4 beat hi-hat.

#2 of 80 - "Up On Cripple Creek" - In general, Levon is an active bass drum player but that's offset by judicious use of cymbals

#3 of 80 - "Come As You Are" - Nirvana. Dave Grohl is a bass drum addict - but he pulls it off.

thanks andy. you said in one sentence what it took me three convoluted dissertational posts to say!

as you were posting this, it occurred to me that dave grohl's predecessor, chad channing, is quite the thumper, and in ways that i think really work for the songs on bleach.

one of my favorite uses of the kick drum is when drummers do fills on the floor and rack and kick: 1 - 2- 3. Bonham was good at it, but he wasn't the only one. channing does it in the verses of the song "school", to the point where it IS the punctuation mark on that riff. it works really well.

of course, it's a fill that gets overused, too. it's at least two thirds of moby dick. to hear a most egregious example, listen to the neal peart's second fill after the guitar solo in tom sawyer.

andy, i also like your invention of the word "othertimes".

makes total sense. i'm going to start using it. and in 20 years time , it will be in the dictionary.

mod wrote: "I'm still not too surprised at the dearth of examples of times when this style works in a rock 'n roll song."

i agree and neither am i.

successful kick parts that are...ermmm...active, require a rare, elusive combination of elements: talented drummer, the right song, the right riff, the right bassist (or bass part). even with all this working in synch, if the engineer (and whoever's tuning the drums) aren't on their...........*sigh*.........toes (speaking of feet), it still might sound wrong, or we might miss it.

We also seem to be talking about several different kinds of 'complexity':

a complex bass drum pattern that repeats either throughout the song of during extended stretches of the song (disqualified prog examples, Drumbo)

bass drum fills (Bonzo, double bass metal wankery, Simon Phillips, Roland drum machine 16th notes on Blue Monday)

variations on fairly straightforward bass drum patterns that appear complex because they improvisatory (Tom Ardolino comes to mind) or because they follow the arrangement of the song closely, too closely if you want a hit record (Will Rigby)

Bass drum patterns that are not complex in themselves but may seem so because they don't double the bass drum or the rhythm guitar but rather fit into a complex overall rhyhtm arrangment (my personal favorite)

Are there others?

I'm with A-Dogg on this one. I dig the tricky kick drum. I also wanted to mention Levon Helm, specifically the drumming on King Harvest.

A while back there was a discussion of what people latch onto first when listening to music. I didn't get in that one, but this thread gives me the chance to say that my favorite listening focus is the kick/snare pattern. I* love thumping those things out on my steering wheel or chest (left hand: snare/right hand: Kick. Of course nothing entertains me more than a 12 or sixteen bar pattern with a couple of little sixteenth note anticipations on the kick. It's sort of a joke in the band of me banging out these patterns on myself at rehearsal to teach Kelsey my version of what he should do. The others tend to describe colors, waves and flowers, so I often get what I want.

Just remembered a real favorite. Little Johnny Jewel, a virtual bass drum symphony. I also dig the very clear but lo-fi sound that that captures the sound of a band in a practice room like no other.

Saturnismine wrote:

another example of what i think is a "great" rock and roll song that practically features a "lead" kick drum, is "lust for life". it's not irregular, but it is busy.

I'm cool with busy so long the kick drum commits to a pattern. I was speaking with an associate of Geo's this weekend, telling him about this thread. He's a drummer. In the course of the discussion, I admitted that the kick drum in "Sweet Soul Music" is my ideal: it's consistent, driving, and leading the way by slashing through all other possible accents. If the guitarist or bassist takes an accent, the drummer doesn't feel the need to underscore it, which to me often takes away from the individual "cool" of each musician's accent.

That said, the suggestion of Levon is a great one, and it underscores the oversimplification of my original premise.