It's good to know that when you think of us, you think of drumming in your pants, Mr. Mod. Too funny;) There should be an infomercial made with that kid, "Have you ever air-drummed to your favorite song? Annoyed that your pants don't sound like a *real* drum kit? Now you too can drum IN your pants for only 3 installments of 19.95! Act now and get this free beanie that sounds like a tambourine!" aand that's the extent of my jokes this early in the AM. Good one, though;) I already told you my cheese joke, too. Damn.

Wow - just finished watching that Sly footage too - awesome! Errico is really great:) I love Rose Stone's powder blue parachute outfit, crazy! and my favourite part is where Sly yells out "Okay, we're gonna spell some letters!" $10,000 *is* definitely some groovy bread!

NEWS FLASH!

Moddie sez:

...get this, Hrrundi - a Prince song...

I inform:

Chaka's biggest hit -- "I Feel for You," the one that starts out with that dude saying "Chaka Khan... Chaka Khan... Chaka Khan..." -- was a cover of a Prince song, off his "Dirty Mind" album. Come to think of it, Mod, I'd be very curious to hear your opinions about that particular album. Have you ever heard it? It was his breakthrough critical darling effort: "Dirty Mind."

On another note, "Tell Me Something Good," though not a cover, was a Stevie Wonder composition. It does kick major ass, for sure. There are a couple other gems from that "Rags to Rufus" album, which I just thrifted for a buck.

"I Feel for You" was a Prince song??? I had no idea. Thanks for informing me. That's another good Chaka Khan number.

I haven't heard Dirty Mind since freshman or sophomore year of college, but I do remember thinking it was by far the coolest thing I'd heard and would hear by the guy beside "When Doves Cry". I remember it being really stripped down and in my face. Anyone care to send Mr. Mod a copy of this album so that I may fully reappreciate it?

Finally, I had NO idea that Stevie Wonder wrote "Tell Me Something Good"! A huge chunk of my rock nerd ignorance has been exposed this morning, but it's a good thing. Rags to Rufus was one of the first cassettes I got through Columbia House as a kid. It is a fine album.

To the Townsperson who strongly dislikes the assertation in today's poll re: Comsat Angels: When was the last time, in the vinyl era, you didn't see one of their albums in a cut-out bin? I always flipped through their albums in cut-out bins. The question is posed to suggest "the best" of regular inhabitants in these bins. Sadly, you have wasted your chance to vote for Comsat Angels as "the best" of this lot. :-)

Re: the Sly Stone footage --

Mach fucking SCHAU! That shit is unbelievable! To all those who either can't or won't understand what Winner Rock is all about: spend three minutes with this clip. If you *still* don't get it, then, shit, I dunno.

Full marks to Larry Graham and Mr. Guitar Player for some serious high steppin'. Awesome!

Awesome. "I Feel For You" was one of my first 45 records that my parents gave me for my birthday when I was 8 - they brought me home that, b/w The Gap Band's "You Dropped A Bomb On Me" which was on the other side, and then Survivor's Eye of the Tiger was b/w Steve Miller Band's "Abracadabra". I'm showing my age, but whatevah. I rollerskated to those *quite* a bit, needless to say! I never knew Chaka was so hot. Check out that glittery purple tube top. Go Chaka! It's too bad that the Oprah gaff couldn't have been "Chaka, Shakira - Shakira, Chaka" :)

One final comment before I sign off for a while to actually do some work: WRT Winners vs. Losers -- anybody remember Elliott Smith's breakthrough performance on the Oscars some years back? He was a shock nomination for some weedy song he wrote for "Good Will Hunting," I think (that was Elliott, wasn't it?), and when he came out on stage for his "I gotta break through" performance, he stared at his shoes and warbled tremulously for three minutes, then stood there in the gloom as the lights faded to black. I remember thinking: what, don't you *want* people to like your music? Compare and contrast with this Sly performance, as they're gunning for best new act of 1968: enthusiastic, take-no-prisoners, joyful, high-steppin'. Like Mod, I'm not saying there's no role for the Elliot Smiths of the world -- and for those Oscar performances -- but *right there* is the difference between Winner and Loser Rock.

I Feel For You is not on Dirty Mind. It's from Prince's self-titled album, his second one, the one right before Dirty Mind.

I been pince-nezzed on a Prince fact!

I stand corrected. Dang!

HVB illustrates the problem with the whole concept of Winner Rock by using it as a stick to beat Loser Rock (as personified by Elliott Smith) with. I enjoyed the Sly clip very much, but I would hate it if all music was like that.

Winners are supposed to accept victory with grace, and those who don't are the reason the concept of the 'sore winner' was developed.

For anyone wanting to go see across the universe, it's already playing here in Philly - it makes me think of A Life Less Ordinary crossed with something else Ewan McGregor sang in. Anything else, actually. Wait, why wasn't Ewan cast in this thing? I guess they were going for younger. Evan Rachel Wood is in it, hmmm.

So much for final comments. I have to admit, there was a winner in this 1968 music competition. So everyone else in that showcase must have been playing loser rock.

Normally I would sign no petition constricting free expression, but I believe there is a psychic cost that will be involved with this Across The Universe movie. I feel my will to live flagging. It must be stopped. Judging from this clip, it may be worse than a snuff/kiddy porn film sponsored by an oil company who mkaes Soylent Green.

Kiddie porn? Snuff film? What? Did anyone on this board see "Once" with the lead singer of The Frames? I'm thinking this is a new trend. All movies with musical lust, say "Aye!"

I might go to see Genesis tonight for free - Phil Collins is staying at the Four Seasons I heard. I'm serious! Dead serious!

mockcarr sez:

I have to admit, there was a winner in this 1968 music competition. So everyone else in that showcase must have been playing loser rock.

I applaud:

EX-cellent!

To BigSteve, I say: huh? How many times do Mod and I have to say "there's nothing wrong with Loser Rock" or "we need a bit of Loser Rock to balance out the Winner Rock" before you and others will stop claiming we're "using" Winner Rock to "beat down" Loser Rock and all it stands for. I swear, you guys have a complex or something.

Wouldn't it be funny if this Across the Universe film was actually good? I'm mortified every time I see the previews, and now I remember this is the same feeling I had when seeing the previews for Moulin Rouge. I used to see ads for that film and think, "Please shoot me if I ever accidentally walk into a theater playing that movie." Then, when it came out on DVD, for some reason my wife and I decided to give it a try, and I LOVED IT. I loved it like I've rarely loved any music, especially one with all kinds of in-my-face campy crap. Surprisingly beautiful. Based on that experience, do I dare see Across the Universe?

Nah!

Lookit, perhaps it won't be as bad as the Attack of the Killer Tomatoes or Manos, Hands of Fate - but there's no Mystery Science Theatre 3000 to make use of it's probable awful grandeur.

To the Townsperson who strongly dislikes the assertation in today's poll re: Comsat Angels: When was the last time, in the vinyl era, you didn't see one of their albums in a cut-out bin? I always flipped through their albums in cut-out bins. The question is posed to suggest "the best" of regular inhabitants in these bins. Sadly, you have wasted your chance to vote for Comsat Angels as "the best" of this lot. :-)

OK as you may have guessed, that person is me. The only one of their albums that I've often seen in cut-out bins is Chasing Shadows, which incidentally is really hard to find on CD. It came out in 1986 and is their 1st "comeback" album, partly financed by Robert Palmer (or maybe he just helped them get a deal; I think that was it on second thought) since he was a fan, after two crappy synth-pop albums after their great 1st 3. They also had to change their name to CS Angels (at least in this country) because of a satellite communications company in the U.S. called ComSat.

Anyway I did that to make 2 points. I've never seen any of their really godo albums in the cut-out bins. In fact, they were really hard for a while until they recently got reissued by Renascent. The mid '90s RPM reissued were long out-of-print. Also, it implies that they're somehow second-rate. It also pains me to see The Saints in there, though I have purchased many of their records in cut-out bins. Then again, I primarily like the Ed Kuepper era Saints anyway.

That Sly clip is fantastic. For overall performance, I think they “won” at Woodstock, too, at least among what made it into the movie for everyone.

While the Chaka Khan version of “I Feel For You” is great, I do like the Prince original better. There’s a live David Byrne cover of Prince’s “Electric Chair” out there, now that’s a strange choice. If Chaka Khan did cover ELO, I’m thinking it would have to be “Wishing”. Whereas Prince himself would have to do “Buildings Have Eyes”.

Anybody going over to check that Beware of the Blog entry should make sure they take a look at the link to the back of the JOAH album cover. I’m not sure what I like best about it. Possibly that I thought he was wearing a coonskin cap at first. Perhaps “It’s up to each individual, you know.” Maybe the mysterious offer for piracy narcs. But probably the way that “I have your albums fellows” seems vaguely menacing within the context of the whole thing.

To tie the linking, Prince and artist rights threads together, I noticed this news bit on one of those elevator TV news deals in my office’s building last week and thought it might come up here: Prince is probably going to sue YouTube and eBay. The original blurb I saw only mentioned the YouTube and “Prince vs. Internet” parts, but he may also be suing over the sale of “unauthorized product lines, including Prince clocks, socks, dolls and mouse pads” according to the article here http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20766059/

Prince socks aren’t too hard to visualize, but I’m curious to see what a Prince clock looks like. Does it use a big and small Prince Symbol for the hands? God, I hope that’s what it uses for the hands.

I've never seen Moulin Rouge, but in the back of my head I've always planned to. But Across the Universe has an extra element that ensures it's badness -- baby-boomer brown-nosing.

With all the attention Across The Universe is getting here, someone should step up and see it, for scientific purposes.

Who's due next for the jukebox musical/movie heavy-handed literal treatment? There’s a movie called Blood On The Tracks due out next year or so, but it’s apparently about vampire serial killers living in the subway tunnels in New York and not characters named after Dylan songs. They should have found a way to combine the ideas.

Oh, yeah, Byrne did The Future and not Electric Chair. This probably doesn’t make a difference to anyone but me.

A Rock Town Hall outing to see this new movie would be fun, but lately I'm too busy to do anything but the 43 things for which I'm already booked each week. I do need to get in touch with a would-be Townsman about a special movie screening we've discussed organizing. Stay tuned...

Can we give some kind of RTH good parenting award to sally's parents? I'm willing to ignore Eye of the Tiger for anyone cool enough to give an eight year old You Dropped A Bomb On Me to roller skate to.

hvb said:

To BigSteve, I say: huh? How many times do Mod and I have to say "there's nothing wrong with Loser Rock" or "we need a bit of Loser Rock to balance out the Winner Rock" before you and others will stop claiming we're "using" Winner Rock to "beat down" Loser Rock and all it stands for. I swear, you guys have a complex or something.

Then stop accusing us of being unable or unwilling to 'get' what Winner Rock is all about, especially since you didn't exactly do anything to help with the definition. And stop beating up on Elliott Smith, while giving lip service to the need for Loser Rock.

Bakshi, calling Sly and the Family Stone winner rock is really stretching. Listen to their message: they want everyone to get down and groove and love one another. It's 1968, and a whole lot of people aren't exactly feeling like winners, except those perhaps who told everyone to "join the winning team" and support the Vietnam war.

A message of love and peace isn't exactly competitive is it?

Drjohn, you're still missing the point, but I'm giving up. This all seems to be a forest-for-the-trees problem. BigSteve -- whatchoo talkin' 'bout, man? I believe I was the only person other than Mod to actually posit a definition of Winner Rock to help explain the principle involved. Don't be 'cusin' me of not doing anything to help with the definition.

I'm done on this. Like I said, if folks can't get to Winner Rock by watching that Sly video -- and especially by comparing it to the Elliott Smith performance I mentioned -- then I got nothin' left.

I feel for you, Hrrundi, but there were two main major stumbling blocks in discussing Winner and Loser Rock:

1) Those more empathetic to the notion of Loser Rock don't want to be equated with "losers." Elliott Smith was a very troubled man; I don't think the objective of Loser Rock - at its best - is to BE a loser.

2) Those more empathetic to Loser Rock also seemed to be intimidated by the notion of "winners," but as I think I finally began to clarify with BigSteve, at least, it's not some cut-throat winner take all mentality that Winner Rock espouses; it's NOT Christian Bale's character in American Psycho. I'm pretty sure all but the guys whose moms wrote them notes excusing them from gym class for the entire school year got that much out of the definition.

The one thing that I honestly felt was overlooked in the discussion was rock's dual roles in serving the individual and the community. I'm certain that view I suggested taps into both sorts of rock in a positive, productive manner. And one more thing I hope people understood: these two forms of rock are not the only two forms of rock. It's not an either/or dynamic that Oats and I were suggesting.

Anyhow, Hrrundi, I appreciated your concise read on what I was getting at, and I really appreciated you coming forth, as I did al the rest of you who came forth to sharpen the definitions for both terms. Yes, even those of you who tormented me deserve Mad Props. There will come a day when I post all the offlist messages of support. Those will be the folks deserving of my wrath!

No, I think the stumbling block was:

3) Those of us who recognized that you were talking about interesting questions but who felt the term "winner" didn't come close to doing justice to the issues at stake.

For the record, I'm not intimidated by the notion of "Winners." I just think it's incorrect. The idea of "Winners" is a loser in my book.

Mwall, enough of your objections. Perhaps no one engaged more readily in this thread. For someone who so boldly refused to participate in the discussion under the terms in whic it was framed, you sure did participate passionately. For all the objections people have about my comfort level with objective distinctions in the arts, it's funny that those of you who object most vociferously would say I'm "incorrect." For shame!

the winner rock / loser rock debate is for losers.

mod...thanks for thinking of me!

i'm in the thick of it right now...

will chime in later.

go phightins!!!

art

Mwall, enough of your objections.

Now come on, man. I had already stopped. I had even let others have the last word. But I responded again because you couldn't refuse the last little dig, in your comments to hrunndi above, when it was unnecessary. May I suggest that an excellent strategy for ending my objections would not be commanding me to stop, but to cut out the digs? As I'm sure you can see by now, any further digs will only require me to continue.

I mean, that's how competition works, right?

I think I'll try a variation on the strategy that someone once suggested for the Vietnam war -- I'm going to declare myself the Loser and withdraw.

I hear you loud and clear - all of you! Peace out.

I did two things yesterday.

1. I took the RTH short straw and ran out to see Across The Universe at noon 2. I saw Genesis at The Wachovia Center. Me! I saw Genesis at The Wachovia Center! For free! They were AWESOME! And I never thought I'd say that about Genesis - but they were AWESOME! I'll see if I can write some reviews between today and tomorrow for you guys.

And hey, Big Steve, thanks for the parenting award. My mum will be happy to hear that they did *something* right, ha ha - xo

Review of each would be most appreciated, Sally!!!