Great post, Berlyant, but this DC hardcore stuff DOES NOT COMPUTE. I've never heard The Empire, but you're serious in thinking this is actually "influenced" by anything other than a privileged and rootless childhood and no discernable musical foundation? UGH! As a musician of some degree who came of age during exactly this period of "I don't get it" underground rock, I seriously need an education in what is worthwhile about this stuff other than the chance to roll around shirtless and sweaty with other young men in a nonthreatening, seemingly nonsexual manner. This really solidifies my long-held belief that hardcore was a form of sports for guys who didn't like sports. I look forward to the education I have coming to me.

This clip was enjoyable enough, but I do see the band as a transition stage between the more straight ahead hardcore of Minor Threat and the awkward, angular postpunk of Fugazi.

Although it may be indirect, I always hear a fair amount of Minutemen influence on Fugazi, both in the articulate leftist politics of the lyrics and the angular riffing. I don't think Fugazi is as good as The Minutemen, although I like some of their music.

The Beefeater album I have just doesn't do much for me. Not so Half Japanese, which is more intriguingly half rock half sloppy art noise.

Ah Mr. Mod, as you so proudly always remind us, you are not, nor were you ever, part of the tribe. The tribe uses the music as a gathering ground for believers in its values, one in which "musical foundations," especially that of polished rock and roll, are considered part of the corruption. It's about communalism and way of life more than simply performance as such. I say this not to take sides but just to remind you that they dislike your musical values just as much as you dislike theirs.

matt, don't worry, i don't think there's any disagreement over what type of song gives a visceral thrill. i just wanted to be sure that matter of *making* the song didn't cloud our emphasis on the listening experience.

this stuff is, of course, near and dear to my heart. and i love that you keep bringing it up. you bringing up hardcore on rth is like a comet that keeps appearing in the night sky after an interval of absence, or like a planet with an elliptical orbit that comes near to rth, and then goes far far away, only to return. GREAT!

mod, your comments remind me of looking back on a vid someone took of the black flag show at love hall, ca. 1985, when henry AND dez were both in the band. as we watched, it dawned on me (and i remarked that) they really were free as a band to approach playing any way they pleased; because they didn't WANT to have "influences", or play according to them, except maybe to turn them ass-side up. and this desire to make a clean break from the evolution of rock up to that point, plus the desire to express rage above all else, sent them in some really cacaphonous directions. i don't see these directions as non-musical.

nor do i see them as without a musical foundation. in fact, each of the seeming blurs of music that that hardcore bands called 'songs' sound basically the same each time they play them. thus, they require the ability to play fast together, and they also require an incredible amount of "outside of the box" thinking where chordal and melodic relationships are concerned. it's easier to play and write a 1 - 4 - 5 song than it is to play write a hardcore song. and this is to say nothing of what it takes to show it to your bandmates. this topic, however, is complicated by the basic hardcore / punk anti-tradition and anti-establishment rhetoric and pose, which INSISTS that there is nothing musical about hardcore (until a critic like you comes along and CRITICIZES that there's no musical foundation: THEN they'll tell you that it requires musicianship). at any rate, as someone who produced two albums by the longest continuous running hardcore band in existence, f.o.d., i couldn't believe the amount of musical foundation those guys had, and what good listeners they were while playing and recording. and their music is much more of a seeming blur than this stuff.

as far as whether or not it's "worthwhile", of course, that's for you to decide. that's your personal trip, and if it doesn't resonate with you, then for god's sake, don't force it. you might hurt yourself.

question: how do you feel about hüsker dü? when did they become interesting for you?

Great post saturnismine! Punk rock and hardcore is the music of my youth, so of course I'll keep posting about it on here. I'm just glad I have a partner in arms on here.

Mr. Mod, I think once again it's important to make a distinction between Minor Threat and everything else Ian MacKaye (and many of his contemporaries) would do afterwards. One of my points was to say that Embrace was the beginning of a long journey away from the bare-chested, fist-pumping, mosh-pit stuff that you refer to. I mean, after Fugazi (another band whose music gives me unlimited visceral thrills, esp. on their early records) went "on hiatus" in 2002, he's formed a band called The Evens with his girlfriend Amy Farina. They're an acoustic guitar/drums duo who play in libraries and churches (where I saw them last year). My point is that the guy's mellowed out, but I guess that's a bit extraneous to this conversation. I also wanted the following points that mwall made:

Although it may be indirect, I always hear a fair amount of Minutemen influence on Fugazi, both in the articulate leftist politics of the lyrics and the angular riffing. I don't think Fugazi is as good as The Minutemen, although I like some of their music.

You know, I love both bands, but I've never heard The Minutemen's influence on Fugazi. I do, however, hear the influence of everything from Led Zeppelin to dub and reggae to Gang of Four all over their music, though I would argue that the way they combined those influences makes me one of the most original bands of the last 20 years.

The Beefeater album I have just doesn't do much for me. Not so Half Japanese, which is more intriguingly half rock half sloppy art noise.

Honestly, the one Beefeater album I've heard doesn't do anything for me, either. They're an example of what can happen when white funk can get way too cheesy, even self-consciously so. I just put them in there because they were part of the same scene, though in truth some of the other early DC "emo" bands who followed like Ignition, Swiz, Kingface, Soulside and others were WAY better.

What I don't understand is why you mentioned Half Japanese in the same breath. I think they initially started somewhere in Maryland, but they'd been around for 10 years or so before all that mid '80s DC stuff started happening. Plus, their sound is completely different and they were a seminal influence on a lot of the Olympia/K records stuff.

What I don't understand is why you mentioned Half Japanese in the same breath. I think they initially started somewhere in Maryland, but they'd been around for 10 years or so before all that mid '80s DC stuff started happening. Plus, their sound is completely different and they were a seminal influence on a lot of the Olympia/K records stuff.

Well, because I'm from DC. Half Japanese certainly emerges in the art noise era of the late 70s and were well known figures at the time of the rise of the hardcore scene. I think they're the purest example of the "you don't have to know how to play in order to play" mindset--the point was not technique, but concept. And they don't sound all that different in some ways, with their fracturing of rock structures in some combination of accidentally and on purpose. I mean, okay, they're more tearing apart a kind of Talking Heads or Modern Lovers sound than a hardcore sound, but many of the conceptual goals are the same, and J were very much a presence on the DC hardcore scene.

Mwall says:

I say this not to take sides but just to remind you that they dislike your musical values just as much as you dislike theirs.

I'm well aware of that and very comfortable with our being at odds over these Rock Values. Some day I'm going to comb through the database of circa 1986 hardcore dudes to see what they're listening to now. My guess is that a good 92% have come over to the side of Real Music, at least to some degree.

saturnismine asked:

question: how do you feel about hüsker dü? when did they become interesting for you?

The rare times I could enjoy the basic punk rock (in a good, musical way) structures of songs like "When Pink Turns to Gray" (I think that was the title) without being totally bummed out by the sound of a distorted, phased Flying G ringing horribly with open chords. Husker Du had great intentions, I just didn't like them that much.

Husker would make my list as a band with a couple of cobweb clearing visceral songs--"Girl on Heaven Hill," for one.

Berlyant wrote:

I mean, after Fugazi (another band whose music gives me unlimited visceral thrills, esp. on their early records) went "on hiatus" in 2002, he's formed a band called The Evens with his girlfriend Amy Farina. They're an acoustic guitar/drums duo who play in libraries and churches (where I saw them last year). My point is that the guy's mellowed out...

Yeah, I know about The Evens. They play right into my hand, right into my thoughts about combing through that database to see what the old hardcore fans are into these days. An acoustic guitar and drum duo with his girlfriend...jeez! To think the likes of these guys called me and my buddies pussies!

To think the likes of these guys called me and my buddies pussies!

Actually, no. They would have criticized the male-centered world view in which "pussies" is considered a putdown--a world view that is essential to rock and roll.

Again, I'm not taking sides here, just pointing out the differences.

Mwall, is it possible for you to actually have an opinion rather than try to show me how sensitive you are today compared with my 23-year-old self? Come on, man. Who's got access to that database?

An opinion on what? You can't really think that I'm short on opinions, I don't think, so what's the question? I've already said I like some of Fugazi, although I don't like them as well as The Minutemen. I've said I don't like Beefeater but find Half Japanese interesting.

I'm not trying to be "sensitive," so you're still missing the point. I'm pointing out that the values of the leftist-punk culture that grew up in the 80s are very specific, and you don't really understand them if you think "sensitive" is an adequate description.

Obviously, speaking for myself, I'm about as "sensitive" as a brick. Anybody who reads this list can see that.

The Evens, who I haven't heard, don't seem to me a concept at all out of line with the values of Fugazi, which have as much of a political and lifestyle orientation as they do a musical attitude.

you guys are talking about different punk cultures. hardcore was as varied as high school back in the 80s. there were really hostile, ignorant, nearly white trash punks who, sure as shit, would've called anybody on this list a pussy. the scene around nyc was like that, especially the scene around reagan youth, as their name suggests. in the lehigh valley it could get like that too. philly punks had a pretty rough reputation as hard drinking, drugging, fighting, mean as shit people.

mod, don't confuse this mentality with the more informed d.c. brand of punk. mwall is right: they would've objected to it wholeheartedly.

i'm more concerned with your continued willingness to contrast "real music" with hardcore, even after my description of the ways in which some of the blindingest, most cacaphonous hardcore is, without question, musical, much more than your dismissal of it would suggest. don't bring the fact that some mohawked morons back in 83 thought you were a pussy to bear on whether or not hardcore is "real music".

in other news, the big boy just clocked another one:

Phils 6, Washington nationals nothin'.

take that d.c., hardcore!

Art, thanks for that clarification. It helps me understand more about Mr. Mod's attitude. The split between thug punk (or Nazi punk, right?) and leftist punk was an important issue back in the day, but as you're saying it depends mightily on where you were. There was only the barest hint of thug punk in DC, but it makes sense that there would have been a lot more of it in Philly, and it makes sense too that Mr. Mod might see a close link between the Philly sports fan thug and the Philly punk thug. DC for the most part is without a significant white thug culture, although there's some of it in a few suburban pockets.

I'm not avoiding the musical issues you raise, and I look forward to more discussion of that question. I'd love to hear a discussion too of how the musical values of hardcore and those of death metal cross over or don't, since we were just talking about virtuosity in metal, however briefly. And there are the same cultural issues there too--leftism and thugishness and their struggle for control of various scenes.

Man, I hope you're not celebrating too soon re the Phils. The Nationals are just good enough to beat you guys in one key game. But you've got Mets fans calling in Dr. Heimlich, so maybe you'll be okay.

Saturnismine wrote:

mod, don't confuse this mentality with the more informed d.c. brand of punk. mwall is right: they would've objected to it wholeheartedly.

OK, let me scale back on the hyperbole for a minute. I'm well aware that equating anything with Ian McKaye with the notion of hardcore thugs was way off the mark. Lumping his scene in with that was meant to be a bit of a nipple pinch, OK?

Now, let's talk turkey. Let's talk music. I just listened to that track again. It sounds like an incredibly mediocre high school band trying to play Black Sabbath with a bad singer. What am I missing? Don't give me any of this "tribe" nonsense, Mwall. And my brother in Phillies Phever, Townsman Sat, don't give me this breaking boundaries, pushing the envelope nonsense. Maybe they, as 23 year olds, thought that's what they were doing, but let's talk about the music.

If we want to talk music, what the hell am I missing? I like my share of Black Sabbath and other '70s metal bands. I can appreciate what bands like Husker Du were trying to do. I actually like a decent amount of Black Flag, so I am capable of distinguishing some things within this sometimes "not real" genre of music. When you listen to this song by Embrace, what exactly turns you on? And remember, none of this tribe nonsense. Everybody's in one tribe or another.

I look forward to your responses, and I look forward to even one Townsperson stepping forward and finding some merit in my thoughts on this matter. Remember, I've saved those offlist messages of support for my last publicly unpopular position. One of these days I'm going to print them out and use them to wipe my ass!

When you listen to this song by Embrace, what exactly turns you on? And remember, none of this tribe nonsense. Everybody's in one tribe or another.

As I already said, I think the Embrace tune that was posted represents a transitional moment between Minor Threat and Fugazi. I am not "turned on" by it, but I see how it makes a connection between a couple bands that turn me on more. In the larger pantheon, though, I am not a fanatical of DC hardcore.

But no, you can't dismiss the tribe aspect. What turned people on was feeling a part of something that reached beyond simply being music. I think there are shortcomings involved with that, but this distinction you're making between "the music" and "the tribe" isn't so simple when it comes to considering the situation in question.

Some people, see, think the issue of culture (which is basically how people do or don't get along, right?) is the turkey, and the issue of music is the minor one. They would see it as: they're concerned with issues of life and death, while you're getting your sphincter all in a bunch about some nonsense regarding how much feedback is "allowable."

I myself feel some sympathy for both positions, depending on how they're explained.

But in case I haven't stated my opinion that clearly, as you would have it, the Embrace video does not encapsulate for me what's important about DC hardcore. I am not "turned on" by it.

Mwall wrote:

But no, you can't dismiss the tribe aspect.

Listen, man, I won't dismiss it if you accept what I cut on it for in the first place. It's thoroughly mediocre and ineffective in musical terms. It's all about dudes celebrating their inner dude. It's all about guys rubbing their sweaty chests together in a nonthreatening way. It's about getting called in off the bench for once and getting some meaningful time on the basketball court. I'm not saying these elements are not acceptable or necessary, but it's not much in terms of music. I'm suggesting that this particular track brings little to the table in terms of its musical content. I wish someone could explain what it has going for it in terms of musical content. I'm sure someone's running an analysis as I type.

Listen, man, I won't dismiss it if you accept what I cut on it for in the first place. It's thoroughly mediocre and ineffective in musical terms.

Well, I guess I don't think it's "mediocre and ineffective" in musical terms. I think it's a random cut from a live show from a band that represents a transition between two more significant bands. I think it's an okay live cut for what it is, but I certainly don't love it. And it certainly says nothing definitive about the whole value of DC hardcore, any more than one single live song of any band says anything definitive about anything.

It's all about dudes celebrating their inner dude. It's all about guys rubbing their sweaty chests together in a nonthreatening way. It's about getting called in off the bench for once and getting some meaningful time on the basketball court.

No, you're still way off here. If you said something about "vegetarian straight edge morally pompous fucks who are soon going to realize that they'd rather be in folk bands with their girlfriends than playing rock and roll, which they finally all hate because they think it's socially backwards" then you might be nearer the mark.

I'm not saying these elements are not acceptable or necessary, but it's not much in terms of music. I'm suggesting that this particular track brings little to the table in terms of its musical content.

I think it's not nearly that bad. Art has been addressing you directly on the topic of musical content, talking in detail about the structure of the song, so you have indeed received a response.

To my ears, this is the sound of a band biting off more than they can chew. They know how to spatter the walls with Minor Threat bellow-rock, but their attempt to keep the bellow while adding occasional flourishes of guitar sensitivity just falls flat.

I have no idea what MacKaye is actually bellowing, which is another problem (how can you have a frontman so famous for taking Important Moral Stances On Things who literally can't be understood?). But let's assume he's bellowing "NO POLITICS!", which seems as reasonable as the next silly thing one might expect to pop out of his gob. Ask yourself: without the aid of backstory (they were young, they were children of the DeeCee power elite yearning to break free, whatever) -- how could you stand in that sweaty, smelly club without laughing your head off? This eventually gets to another point about musical maturity, but I have to clean the house this morning, so it'l have to wait. But in the meantime, I say: pshaw.

OK, Mwall, Saturnismine did say this:

thus, they require the ability to play fast together, and they also require an incredible amount of "outside of the box" thinking where chordal and melodic relationships are concerned. it's easier to play and write a 1 - 4 - 5 song than it is to play write a hardcore song.

This degree of difficulty in writing a hardcore song might help me better understand the genre. I get the speed thing, although I'm not sure that I've heard many hardcore bands who make the speed work for them. It's not like Grand Prix racing, for the most part, but late-night, drunken drag races. As for the "outside the box" part, granted, I'm picking on this one mediocre song, but where are the hardcore songs that don't sound like Black Sabbath and Deep Purple as played by teenagers in a suburban basement? By your description, Sat, I would expect more "hardcore" bands to sound like Gone, that instrumental offshoot of Black Flag. Greg Ginn put together a really tight, actually creative band that made music I could at least appreciate and be dazzled by if not embrace. With all the high-minded values of hardcore, shouldn't Gone and latter-period Black Flag have been the Gold Standard? I've said this before, when we played with Wunderful-era Circle Jerks at City Gardens in 1986, I believe, their soundcheck, without the singer guy, was awesome! They played a bunch of King Crimson-like instrumental things that demonstrated their fine musicianship. They were still good doing their regular Circle Jerks stuff, although truth be told, by that point in their career they were doing songs that closely resembled the '70s arena rock that was obviously their first love. In other words, they had learned to sound like a real, rooted, plodding '70s band.

I do respect you guys, and I do feel some shame about standing here and being so critical about an entire genre of well-intentioned rock 'n roll. I'm aware of the fact that there are those of you who might feel I'm making a complete ass out of myself, but I hope that doesn't hold a few more of you back in either agreeing with me or helping to clarify the musical values of hardcore. Thanks.

I didn't like that mainly because I played it twice, and I still can't remember how it goes. It needs to be a little catchy, or I won't get it. I never much cared for the hardcore scene, outside of some of the West Coast bands. One thing I hated about hardcore was that it was so quickly adopted by a bunch of right wing kids, and that's just two things that don't go together to me. I'm sure the musicianship is there, but I think the regular core punk that preceded hardcore was far more interesting. I still listen to a lot of the stuff I listened to when I was a kid, and I can't see many kids still clinging to that when they start approaching half a century on the planet. So maybe I was just too old for it anyway, but I don't eat Razzles anymore, either.

I still think it's funny that hardcore and speed metal really are so similar and yet their fans utterly hated each other.

let's be fair on both sides:

i wasn't thinking of *this* embrace song (or this performance of it, which isn't great) as any sort of standard bearer when i was describing the how hardcore is musical.

so, by the same token, as a slightly above mediocre example of the genre, it's not a good basis for claiming that hardcore isn't musical, either.

in my comments i was thinking more of early bad brains, faith, void, and rites, in addition to black flag.

hardcore is like any other genre: some of it is fantastic music that does all the wonderful things i was describing above. but it has MORE than its share of shit. a couple of weeks ago, i was in the lehigh valley talking with some of those very fellows i was describing last night who scared the crap out of me when i would go up there for shows in the 80s. they've turned into grownups, not convicts with "berzerker" stenciled on their foreheads.

i said i heard Fang on wmuh on the way up. "smoke dope". it lead to a discussion about all the shitty hardcore bands we had seen.

we all agreed that since rage is at its heart, and it's not elitist, and it comes out of the idea that you don't have to know "every good boy deserves favor" in order to write hardcore songs, it was a dumping ground genre, just as capable of complete musical ineptitude as the quarter note shoe gaze strum over all six strings (even though there's only one finger on the g or d string).

but the people who could REALLY play, and chose to play hardcore, there were more of them than you might think. the bands i list above are really the tip of the iceberg.

so, no, mod, i don't think you're not making a complete ass of yourself.

you understand my stance that it's difficult to make a music that is truly mimetic of the discordant, fragmented, confused, angry energy these guys were feeling.

I still think it's funny that hardcore and speed metal really are so similar and yet their fans utterly hated each other.

On the one hand I agree with you, on the other hand this is like saying "How come Russians and Poles were always going to war with each other when they look so much alike?" The answer in music is that the whole history and set of values of hardcore and speed metal seemed at one time opposed; metal heads, punks, and hippies too had three very different sets of values.

But my sense is that this difference has long since disappeared, at least for the most part.

Wow, a ton of great stuff here. Out of all you, I think that saturnismine has gotten closest to THE TRUTH (hey Mr. Mod, if you're going to throw out phrases like REAL MUSIC in all caps, then I can say that even though it's just my opinion, right?). I need to clarify a few points, though.

you guys are talking about different punk cultures. hardcore was as varied as high school back in the 80s. there were really hostile, ignorant, nearly white trash punks who, sure as shit, would've called anybody on this list a pussy. the scene around nyc was like that, especially the scene around reagan youth, as their name suggests.

I wasn't around back then, so I'll take your word for it, at least to some extent. Regardless, I think it's important to make a distinction between the "New York Thrash" scene that featured Bad Brains, Kraut, Reagan Youth, the early Beastie Boys, Heart Attack and bands like that versus the later New York scene that was stuff like Agnostic Front, Cromags, Warzone, etc. The latter was much more thug-ish and violent and more likely to adopt right-wing or at least nationalist politics, unfortunately. It also attracted lots of skinheads. Plus, many of the people in that first scene, as Mr. Mod suggested, went on to completely different things. For instance, Heart Attack featured Jesse Malin (formerly of D Generation and current Americana-tinged solo artist), Even Worse (another band from that scene) featured Jack Rabid, the editor of The Big Takeover and drummer for Springhouse, an early '90s shoegazer outfit. They also had a guy named Thurston Moore on 2nd guitar for a little while, too. Tim Sommer, who used to host "Noise the Show" on WNYU with Jack, went on to play with Hugo Largo, a Young Marble Giants-inspired drummer-less band with a female singer. Thus, my point is that this scene (and the early punk scene in general) attracted a lot of really creative types whereas the later, more metal-ish hardcore attracted jocks, skinheads or kids who would later get into other musical genres (or become the left-leaning activists that mwall suggests).

mod, don't confuse this mentality with the more informed d.c. brand of punk. mwall is right: they would've objected to it wholeheartedly.

Again, it's important to distinguish the early '80s DC scene (remember, these are the kids who introduced the East Coast to slamdancing/moshing, much to the chagrin of older punks) from the one that started with Revolution Summer. OF course, these were the same kids who a few years earlier were getting into fights and what not. Nevertheless, Embrace, et al. and the other Revolution Summer DC stuff is the root of the hardcore activist, we won't play for more than $5 and unless it's all-ages (something which Fugazi and now The Evens, amongst many other bands, fully adopted) aesthetic, though it's important to note that unlike mwall, I don't view it as anti-rock and roll. Sure it's against a lot of the machismo, sexism and homophobia that can be found in more male-dominated genres, but it's still rock and roll (to me, at least).

Oh and Mr. Mod, the Husker Du song in question is "Pink Turns to Blue". I love the song personally and it's easy to see why you at least like the structure. It's a 60s pop song with a bit more distortion and a damn good one to boot! Plus, I always thought it was "Every Good Boys Deserves Fudge", though of course the chords are the same.

though it's important to note that unlike mwall, I don't view it as anti-rock and roll. Sure it's against a lot of the machismo, sexism and homophobia that can be found in more male-dominated genres, but it's still rock and roll (to me, at least).

I didn't say it wasn't rock and roll. I said it set itself up in contrast to some of the key values associated up until then (and still) with rock and roll. That's partly how it identifies itself as a subculture.