I heard the Plant/Kraus thing featured on NPR Sunday morning and really liked it, the attitude of the musicians as well as the music. Thanks for the streaming tip. Definitely let Zeppelin back into your life. I was late to the game in accepting them, but over the years I've come to think that they followed The Beatles in terms of mastering the use of the studio to make rock 'n roll records. Once you get over having your manhood challenged by Plant's high-pitched wail, his bare chest, and those Kingsnake Jeans, you'll realize that Zeppelin is as Prock as XTC circa Black Sea/English Settlement. The band needed more effete, middlebrown, urban hipster fans in their day. They will appreciate your support.

Off the top of my head my favorite lyricists are John Lennon, Andy Partridge, Hal David, Pete Shelly, Paul Weller, and - for a time - Graham Parker. Jagger and Richards were also pretty great during the Brian Jones Stones era. I'm probably forgetting another lyricist or two, but it's better that I do. I hate being one of those guys who can't pick a simple favorite or two.

I would agree that there is absolutely nothing to object to in "Feel A Whole Lot Better"; definitely a rare perfect song. Lately I've been thinking along similar lines regarding Neil Young's "Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere", but according to slightly different criteria of perfection.

Mr. Mod, thanks for the Zep recommendation. Out of curiosity, are you able to appreciate them despite their lyrics. Seriously, AC/DC's are way better, as far as I'm concerned.

Doesn't anyone else have some favorite lyricists? It seems we rarely discuss lyrics on RTH. I wonder if this is by design.

Re: lyrics -- I'm a big fan of how words *sound*, probably more than what they mean. With this in mind, I find myself being a huge fan of Chuck Berry -- and Nick Lowe, as well.

I happen to know some of the specific obstacles you might face in having to re-evaluate/embrace Zeppelin, but I’ll second the recommendation to open the ears of your heart. Or heart of your ears. One of those. What you need to do is divorce them from any notion of their fans, which probably isn’t a bad idea for appreciating any band. But, you know, being able to reclaim Over the Hills and Far Away is worth the effort.

You probably do need to block out the lyrics for them, though. AC/DC’s are knowingly part of the show and enjoyable on that level, but I have no idea how to approach all the Tolkein-y “Gollum and the eeeeeeeevil one” May Queen business and the re-tread faux-blues lyrics on their own, so I just ignore them and enjoy Ramble On.

I have gotten the sense, as a reader and late-coming participant, that lyrics aren’t necessarily a key commodity on Rock Town Hall. I think Hendrix will always be an underrated lyricist. I’ll throw in votes for Jarvis Cocker, Sam Coomes (a specialized niche, maybe) and commit Rock Town Suicide by putting my support behind Fagen, Becker and various elements of their facial hair.

Doesn't anyone else have some favorite lyricists? It seems we rarely discuss lyrics on RTH. I wonder if this is by design.

Lyrics are tricky. I'm inclined to think most lyrics sound ridiculous out of context and outside the music they're intended for's setting.

I appreciate Robyn Hitchcock, Andy Partridge and Costello's wordplay.

Chuck Berry was brilliant in his prime.

I'd add Ray Davies to to the fellows mentioned, of course. Paul Westerberg, Jeff Tweedy, James Mercer. Then there's the good and bad in Pete Townshend.

Having always been interested in the process of writing lyrics, infuriating as is can be, I've certainly a bunch of favorites. Some lesser classic greats off the top of me head:

The Bevis Frond (the very succinct, proper yet not pretentious Englishness of Nick Salmon's approach)
Freedy Johnston (rather amazing character studies, word rhythms, and wordplay)
Robyn Hitchcock (he has plenty of non-bugs related wonderful stuff, especially about psychological states)
Bob Pollard (his cryptic nonsense makes lyrical and sound sense to me)
Then there's the effortlessness of classic-period Ray Davies, but he's one of the pinnacles of the pantheon, innn't he?

I'll try to think of more. Stupid brain.

ac

Oats asked:

Mr. Mod, thanks for the Zep recommendation. Out of curiosity, are you able to appreciate them despite their lyrics. Seriously, AC/DC's are way better, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm probably in a serious minority here, but I kind of like the lyrics of Led Zeppelin songs. In part, because they can be unintentionally funny; in part, because they can be intentionally playful; and in part, because they sing that Tolkein stuff with such conviction and sincerity. I'm a big believer in the power of desire being expressed by an artist, whether it's something I desire or not. When Plant sings that stuff in "Ramble On", for instance, my favorite Zeppelin song, he sounds so into it that I have empathy for him. So, compared with AC/DC, who sound about as interested in what they're singing as I am in taking a piss, I'll take Zeppelin's lyrics any day.

In general, alexmagic and others, maybe RTH is not as lyric oriented as it could be because your moderator is more along the lines of "If it sounds good it's good enough for me..." that Hrrundi expressed. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate great lyrics, but sometimes I'll read a set of lyrics by - not to pick - Randy Newman, think they're really good, and then hear the song and think, "Eh..." In these cases I'd rather hear Plant singing "Let the music be your master/Can you hear the master's call?"

The handful of favorite lyricists I listed should also include Dylan and Lou Reed. I told you I'd add more. These people are a few whose lyrics I'll actually take the time to figure out/read. As much as I love Costello, I'm half and half on his lyrics. Too much wordplay without content - without desire - and I'm content to focus on the bass parts of Bruce Thomas.

I'm all for others leading this lyric-driven discussion. It in no way cuts against this group's Mission.

Cool. Great stuff so far.

The big titans in my personal pantheon are probably Ray Davies, Randy Newman and Jarvis Cocker.

And of course Bob Dylan and Neil Young kinda go without saying.

Lately, I've been big on Neil Finn's ability to write about the commonplace and mundane with a sense of mystery. He's also very aware of the potential of the sheer sounds of words. This is appeal of latter-day Jeff Tweedy as well.

In the past I was big on Costello, Partridge and Richard Thompson. I still love their music but, lyrically, they've each stayed in their own cul de sacs a little too long.

Oh, and Ray Davies!

Man, I'm beginning to sound like those guys who can't stop at one...

Count me in as another "effete, urban hipster" (though definitely not "middlebrow") who's a fan of getting the Led out. In fact, getting into them at age 14 led me away from hair metal and eventually to stuff like Jane's Addiction and Smashing Pumpkins (bands who always got Led Zep comparisons) which led me to the whole universe of indie and punk, as much of a contradiction as that may seem.

It's funny since I just got the box set last year (the 10 disc one that encompasses everything they ever did). I still think that much of what they recorded after 1975 is pretty awful, but up to Physical Graffiti, I don't think they recorded a bum track aside from "The Crunge" and some of the filler on III (one of my favorite albums of theirs).

As for their lyrics, I really don't care. They sound good enough matching the music and the sound is really what it's all about with them. Then again, if I'd try to get into them in my 30s, they may be more of a concern.

As for my favorite lyricists, I have to go with Costello, Graham Parker, Joe Jackson, Andy Partridge and late '60s Ray Davies. More recent favorites include the likes of Colin Meloy and Joe Pernice.

Fave lyricist outside the pantheon: probably Nigel Blackwell of Half Man Half Biscuit. I have always found his lyrics deeply, deeply satisfying.

I wish I had more time right now to engage this question, but I'll just add briefly: Chilton can be a very good lyricist at his best. I also like Roky Erickson's half-grounded, half-loopiness.

Is consistency the issue, or just high points?

Davis, Dylan, Lennon, Young, early Parker I would all obviously second, and Chuck Berry too. The first two-thirds of Richard Thompson's career. I think Stiff Little Fingers lyrics are really fitted to what they're after; who wrote them? Nothing better for streetwise political straightforwardness. There are strong Clash and Pistols moments. Bob Marley was often a great lyricist. He and Berry can't be the only black lyricists to mention though. No Nick Lowe for me; too much cheap smartass.

Sorry to rush through a good question.

I meant Davies, not Davis. I've come round a little on that one.

Some great lyricists mentioned (and I'll second Hal David only because I think he's only been mentioned once).

Motown had some great lyrics, although that's not necessarily something that is mentioned often. But Smokey and whoever did the lyrics in the H-D-H team are strong.

I'll throw out Robbie Fulks who writes some pretty clever, classic country-type lyrics. And Loudon Wainwright who can veer very close to a Broadway lyricist like Frank Loesser.

I let Led Zeppelin back into my life about five years ago. Plant's phrasing sounds great over Page's killer riffs. I still enjoy cranking up Houses of the Holy or IV on a Friday night before going out.

I think Joni Mitchell and Warren Zevon excel at writing introspective lyrics that conncet with me. Some of Gene Clark's White Light solo record ranks up there with Dylan. And I agree that Feel a Whole Lot Better is a perfect song.

i still hate plant's vocals...especially the way his voice changed around the time of 'in through the out door'. ewww.

but i've always been and always will be a zep hed, if just to listen over and over again to page's inventiveness. and i agree wholeheartedly with the comment that they picked up where the beatles left off as a band with a fully developed, studio-based aural imagination. they could paint pictures with sound.

regarding lyrics: oats, you've taken over my role as the guy who says there's not enough attention to lyrics on rth! i'm glad i've got company on that score. i have many favorite lyricists...too many to name here. but the conversation has to start with john lennon. he was the first one whose lyrics captured my attention when i was a little kid. and they still do! it's an obvious answer, but what the hey, somebody's gotta give the doyen of rock lyric writing his due, eh?

and the 'serious american' guys are important to me, too: dylan, and the neiler.

and townshend, of course.

i loved d. boon, and i think of lee renaldo (not thurston or kim) as a keeper of the flame that d. ignited: fusing poetry with punk. sometimes the results are undesirable, but when they hit it, they really inspire me.

this is getting boring isn't it? i'd better come up with some quirky choices: lately, i've been listening to alot of moss icon. jonathan vance is a fucking poet!!!

as for "feel a whole lot better"...well, as the one guy who kept going at it with the mod over the byrds, how could i say any differently? i love that song.

ooops. i forgot my favorite lyricist of all!

syd barrett.

Damn you saturnismine for stealing my thunder.

I also love Partridge, Davies and Costello. But Barrett is in a class of his own.

Fans of Barrett lyrics - and don't think I'm setting you up for one of my patented insults, because I like the guy a lot - do you have a favorite set or two of Syd Barrett lyrics? I like the way his lyrics sound, but I've rarely had them stick in my head as words, if that makes sense.

sorry sammy...great minds...

mod,

you've got no chance of getting my back up with a question about syd's lyrics. they're a breed apart and they tend to illicit reactions that are unique to each listener.

i like the way syd's combinations of words make me think. things in nature appear interwoven with humanity in ways i find comforting. humor and tragedy are inseperable, as are clarity and confusion. and receiving all this is not difficult: it's right there on the surface. i also agree with you, that there is a sonic quality to his word choices that make them work intuitively with his melodies and tempos. the best example (but not the only one) is probably terrapin.

where syd sings "cause we're the fishes and all we do...is move about is all we do" his words are, to my inner eye, sung and delivered in a deep dark blue sea (or fish tank). they're even spaced and floating like fishes. it's remarkable.

No way could I pick a favorite. I'm not a lyrics guy. I generally have trouble deciphering them let alone remembering them. With the exception Barrett. I can sing along with almost every one of his songs (though you wouldn't want to hear it.)

Unlike Hitchcock who does Syd a disservice with his forced Syd-weirdness. Syd's lyrics just swarm me with beauty and a sort of natural and effortless intuition. And when they don't make "sense" on an intellectual level they do on an emotional one.

Some that sprang to mind:

It's an idea, someday
in my tears, my dreams
don't you want to see her proof?
Life that comes of no harm
you and I, you and I and dominoes, the day goes by...

It's no good trying to hold your love
where I can't see because I understand
that you're different from me
yes I can tell
that you can't be what you pretend

our minds shot together

She's often inclined to borrow somebody's dreams till tomorrow,

And even this:

I've got a bike. You can ride it if you like.
It's got a basket, a bell that rings and things to make it look good.
I'd give it to you if I could, but I borrowed it.

You're the kind of girl that fits in with my world.
I'll give you anything, everything if you want things.

when combined with music taps and combines my adrenalined memories of both riding my bike as a kid and falling in love.

Anyone here could rip Syd all they want and all I'd feel is sympathy for them.

Thanks for the examples, Townsmen Sat and Sam.

Davis, Dylan, Lennon, Young, early Parker I would all obviously second, and Chuck Berry too. The first two-thirds of Richard Thompson's career. I think Stiff Little Fingers lyrics are really fitted to what they're after; who wrote them?

What's wrong with later Parker? As for SLF, I'm under the impression that it was journalist Gordon Ogilvie (sp?) who wrote most of their lyrics, at least on the first couple of albums. In fact, I remember The Undertones saying derogatory things about SLF including that their lyrics were written by a journalist and then I found out that's who "Ogilvie" is since many of their songs are credited to "Ogilvie/Fingers".

this is getting boring isn't it? i'd better come up with some quirky choices: lately, i've been listening to alot of moss icon. jonathan vance is a fucking poet!!!

Very cool late '80s DC-area emo reference, saturnismine. I have to admit I was never a big fan of theirs back in the day (though I downloaded their sole album Lyburnum Wits End Liberation Fly (I think that's the title) recently, but have yet to revisit it), though I love the song "Kick the Can". It's unbelievable. One of us should put up an mp3 of it. I have to admit that I thought Tonie Joy wrote their lyrics, though.

On that same note, I'm a big fan of some of the lyrics on Dag Nasty's Field Day, though I'm not sure which lyrics were written by Peter Cortner and which were written by Brian Baker.

Also, have you ever heard Born Against, who shared some comps and at one time, a record label (the singer's own Vermiform) in the early '90s? Their lyrics were terrific since they were political and confrontional, but yet descriptive, passionate and sometimes really funny, too.

Bob Marley was often a great lyricist. He and Berry can't be the only black lyricists to mention though. No Nick Lowe for me; too much cheap smartass.

Nick Lowe (esp. recently) is another favorite of mine. I like Bob Marley's lyrics a lot, too. Curtis Mayfield has to be mentioned here, too.

Oh and I'll put in another vote for "I'll Feel a Whole Lot Better" as the best Byrds song ever.

I'm a lyrics guy. I can enjoy a great song musicially, but if it is paired with a great lyric, i'm in heaven.

Partridge is great - his sense of playfulness with his wordplay is great, and he chooses interesting subjects for his songs to run with. I've always been particularly drawn to his considered use of alliteration which makes lines a joy to sing.

Costello's lyrics are often too busy for the syllables allowed by the melody line, which results in cluttered, over-busy singing. He was particularly awkward around the 'Mighty Like A Rose' period.

Stephin Merritt of the Magnetic Fields can be very clever, and the lines frequently make me laugh, but unfortunately it's paired with a smug ironic distance that makes it obvious he doesn't believe what he's singing. This extends to his (lack of) musicianship, which has an obnoxious, lazy 'that's good enough for them' air about it.

I love a well-written observational lyric, the master of this being Ray Davies, but Jarvis Cocker of Pulp is similarly brilliant in his use of mundane detail to mirror character flaws. Most of his lyrics can be read as prose rather than poetry.

Likewise, Neil Hannon of the Divine Comedy can be both insightful and vulnerable, (though he occasionally drops a ill-advised, goofy stinker). 'A Lady Of A Certain Age' from their latest album is a wonderful piece of savage observation.

Lastly, they're non-rock, but Porter and Sondheim are consistently great.

Generally I'm like hrrundi - if it sounds good and it's not something I disagree with I don't much care. I like "good parts" and if there's dumb parts after the good ones, I don't care. I like stuff I can empathize with more than imagery.

I like Becker/Fagen because it cracks me up that it's generally depraved lyrics backed with stylish, cool music. I think I like Paul Westerberg best, because he puts things in a way that I can really get behind. I like Ben Nichols from Lucero too, for the same reason.

Oh yeah...If you haven't bothered to let Led Zep in your life, why start now? I don't listen to Ted Nugent or Styx, either. I think it helps make me a better person.

Re: Lyrics. Has anyone mentioned Beefheart? God, his poetry is beautiful. Even non-songs like "Telephone." And "Ash Tray Heart", "Sue Egypt."Brilliant.

A lyricist who never blew me away, but always sang what needed to be sungs was (early) Iggy. Partly such decadent messages delivered with that mid-western accent was what packed such odd punch.

I'm not the biggest lyrics guy but John Lennon, Andy Partrdige, Dylan, Elvis Costello are probably my fav's. I do also like Smokey Robinson and H-D-H.

Andyr wrote:

I'm not the biggest lyrics guy but John Lennon, Andy Partrdige, Dylan, Elvis Costello are probably my fav's. I do also like Smokey Robinson and H-D-H.

Sure you're not missing anyone from that list? [Sniff.]

2000 Man wrote:

Oh yeah...If you haven't bothered to let Led Zep in your life, why start now? I don't listen to Ted Nugent or Styx, either. I think it helps make me a better person.

My man, all the hard-rockin' stuff you like and you can't find a place in your heart for Zeppelin? I'm slightly surprised.

By the way, I've been digging the CDs you sent me. It's a treat hearing Jagger sing well in concert on those Stones boots. More detailed comments on the whole batch as I let it sink in. Thanks!

Glad to see Townshend got covered before I got around to posting on this. I'm on board with a lot of others listed so far, but did anyone list Eno yet? He's not known for his lyrics, but I got a kick out of them, especially on the first two albums. David Byrne could also write great lyrics. The lyrics on Gang of Four's 'Entertainment' are among my favorite set of album lyrics.

Let the Led back in. Of course 'Feel a Whole Lot Better' is damn near perfect.