So this means that around 2018, you're going to discover Gorillaz, right?

To be fair, you would have mistaken Blur for Jesus Jones in the early days because on their first album Leisure (the one with the single "There's No Other Way," the only good song on the whole album), that's pretty much what they sounded like. The whole Kinks thing came later.

What exactly is the decorative bow of which you speak?

Good one, Great One. You may be right, however. i've never really heard a Gorillaz song as of 6/11/08. I saw a video once or twice, but I didn't tune into the music. I did hear that album Albarn did with Paul Simonon et al. That was good background music.

BigSteve, the last part of the chorus, when he says something about "the days...well just let them go" is what I call the "decorative bow." I wish I knew how to articulate what I'm hearing musically, but it strikes me as a very detailed, well-crafted way out of the chorus and then into that little Burt Bacharach horn part. It's a classic descending chord progression, and they milk it for all it's worth.

I think I understand what you're saying about Universal (btw the lyric is "when the days, they fall through you..."), but you write that there's one at the end of the chorus of Tender too, and I'm not hearing it. I don't think that's a slide guitar, but the way the guitar plays the melody does remind me of something off of maybe Muswell Hillbillies or Lola.

I'm one of those old dudes that came in in the middle of the Blur story, some time after The Great Escape. I think Albarn is the real deal, and I think you actually might like the Gorillaz stuff. Real pop smarts, and less hip-hoppish than you may have been led to believe. And I've never seen the videos, basically ignoring all the visual stuff that's supposed to be such a big part of their appeal.

For "Tender" I'm thinking of the high vocals that go "I'm waiting for that feeling...", when the chorus could have been over. It's not as dramatic, but I think it's effective. When I listen to that song I look forward to singing along with that high part. They didn't have to add that in.

I'll check out Gorillaz before 2018. I'll also check out that Good, the Bad, and the Ugly - or whatever it was called - album. You were a fan of that one, BigSteve, right? I figured you'd be one of the older dudes who was tuned in. I look forward to hearing from other older dudes out there, some of whom I'm pretty sure were also too cool for school and/or licking wounds at this time...or closely following every move of post-Jam Paul Weller!

Yes, I think The Good The Bad and The Queen may be one of the great albums of the decade. But it's dense and hard to penetrate, though its dubbiness also means that it does work as background music.

Mod: hit the gmail. Best single of 2005, as far as I'm concerned.

Obviously, Blur are one of my favorite bands, and I have no trouble placing them in the upper echelons of British rock. They helped make the late '90s bearable for me. They're also a testament to all the good things that can come out of going to art school.
One of the great things about them is that -- like The Beatles, Talking Heads, Wilco and other favorite bands of mine -- they never really made the same album twice. (Even their Britpop trilogy consists of three distinct, different works -- Modern Life is Rubbish, Parklife, and The Great Escape.)
Also one of the interesting things about them is, for a band who for a time specialized in perfect pop hooks, their best album in my estimation is their most experimental and messiest, 13.
Great post, Mr. Mod. Your points about Blur being able to cleverly recall different eras of British pop while still sounding like human beings is spot on.
I heartily recommend that RTH old dudes pick up that best-of, and some Blur full-lengths, to boot!

I'd stand up for "Modern Life Is Rubbish," though that "13" album struck me as pretty turdular. Never had the inclination to become a fan-boy, and those are the only two albums of theirs I own. (In fact, I may have dumped "13" on the used CD market shortly after I bought it.)

Thank you, RTH, for once again providing a forum where I still get to be a Young Dude. I’m a huge Blur fan, so I’m happy to provide any kind of input I can from the pro side. Great 48 is right, Leisure is a skip, just go right ahead to Modern Life Is Rubbish where they actually establish what is considered their “sound” that spans that album and the next two.

Also agreed with Steve, Albarn is for real, though it’s not necessarily clear from a distance. He’s got both legit songwriting and, as I think the Mod alluded to in a past thread, frontman skills. He also seems to be sincerely interested in the musical tangents he follows, like the direction Blur moved towards on 13 or his various side projects from the last few years. He’s also adept at synthesizing the influences noted above and coming out the other side with good songs, which is what matters in the end.

There’s the real sense through most of their albums that the interplay/head-butting between Albarn and Graham Coxon was a big part of what worked, and Coxon’s guitar and Alex James’ bass are very important parts of what made Blur work.

If I was looking for songs to suggest as entry points for reluctant old dudes, I’d probably throw in Beetlebum, This Is A Low, End of a Century and maybe Movin’ On. “Beetlebum” has a strong White Album feel, alternating between wasted and reaching out of the haze. “This Is A Low” is one of their big, show-closer kind of songs, and gets a lot out of a relatively restrained Coxon solo. “End of a Century” sounds like the Blur “sound”, their Kick Horns era. “Movin’ On” is a good uptempo one and represents the distorted fuzz sound of Blur and 13 well enough. I’ll never understand how that’s not the closer for its album.

The Great Escape was slighted at the time as being too similar to Parklife, but I’d actually recommend it first to people, I think. It has fewer songs that function as musical asides, which happens in the middle of Parklife.

HVB, tracks from albums in between are here for the revisiting, if you please. You, among all older, disgruntled or otherwise distracted Townspeople, surely will have much to offer. I know, for you, the '90s was a time for tracking down those Graffiti Bridge outtakes, but it's good to hear you were somewhat tuned into this band.

I used to own 13 digitally - I think I still have it packed away somewhere. I liked a few songs, but it didn't hit me like the earlier hits. I'll have to pull that one out again.

As I listed Blur as one of my trilogy, I feel it my duty to chime in.

I love the last three albums Blur put out (even Think Tank which is mostly sans Graham Coxon), but the essential Blur album for me is Modern Life is Rubbish. "Pop Scene," "For Tomorrow," "Chemical World,"Pressure on Julian" are all brilliant. It's also the most aggressive of the Brit-pop trilogy. A close second would be the self-titled album with "Country Sad Ballad Man" and the really great Bowie sounding, "Strange News From Another Star."

As you mentioned Tender, I will say that there is a B-side of it on the "No Distance Left to Run" single, (the Cornelius Remix) which is a really stripped down contrast to the dramatic version you hear on 13.

In fact, a great purchase if you can find it is the Blur CD singles Box set. The B-sides show how experimental Blur could be from the get go, and also contains great versions of pub songs (Daisy, Daisy , give me your answer do) and a fun cover of "Maggie May."

I really like all of Damon's side projects as well. The Good, The Bad, and The Queen felt like a bit of a return to the earlier sound of Blur, which was great.

I would caution anyone who is purchasing or listening to a Gorillaz album based on Blur that they are a bit more hip-hop in nature and you really, really have to like Damon's falsetto. Though there are songs like White Light which are massive exceptions to the rule. The second album I think is less hip-hoppy then the first. If you like what you hear of Blur and enjoy Gnarls Barkley, you will probably enjoy at least some of the Gorillaz if not all.

For World Music lovers, I would suggest the album Damon put together for Oxfam, "Mali Music." I don't own much of anything that could be classified as world music so it may not be all that great, but I really like it.

I think it would be remiss to not mention at least one of Graham's solo projects. "Happiness in Magazines" is the one I would suggest is the most worthy of purchase. It is produced by Stephen Street who produced most of "Modern Life is Rubbish" and "The Great Escape." "Coffee & TV" is the one song Damon allowed Graham to sing lead on and is, as far as I know, the one song written entirely by Graham. It also has the greatest use of a milk carton in a rock video. If you like "Coffee & TV" you will probably like the album, and it has some great Graham guitar.

The saddest Blur story I have is being at the last Boston Show which was on the tour for "Think Tank." It was sans Graham and there was still quite a lot of bitterness between both parties. The crowd kept shouting out for "Coffee & TV," the song Graham sings. The whole band looked quite uncomfortable awkward when it was shouted out.

Lastly, there is a pretty interesting documentary out, "Starshaped," which followed Blur around in 1991 & 1992 and has the long sought after version of the Wassailing Song.

There you have it.

I like Coxon's Happiness In Magazines a lot, too. "Bottom Bunk" and "Bittersweet Bundle of Mistery" are my favorites on there, the latter definitely sounding like Coffee + TV. Bittersweet Bundle actually makes a strength out of his weakness in the lyrics department. The “you’re really neat!” and the part about using his razor are so disarmingly uncomplicated that I laugh whenever I hear them.

Coxon’s recent solo output is interesting in that you can hear in his songs exactly what he was bringing to Blur, almost like if you put Happiness In Magazines on top of Think Tank, they would re-form what you expect from Blur. His absence on their last album made it a little harder to warm up to at first, but it does make his lone appearance at the end on “Battery In Your Leg” that much better, especially that rockets taking off/Space Oddity guitar thing he does.

13 was a big change for them at the time, in terms of the sound and how much “less tight” (though not loose, exactly) the songs became, compared to the structure that Albarn’s music had to that point. It’s a depressed and depressing album, but it really did pay off for me. Tender is a great intro to set his state of mind at the time, and the second half gets really dark and messy, all to build to a great close in No Distance Left To Run.

Country Sad Ballad Man and Strange News From Another Star are particular favorites of mine from the Blur album, too.

Oats and I saw them on the Think Tank tour, but it sounds like we had a much better crowd or vibe at the show. It was disappointing to finally see them and NOT have Coxon there, but Albarn really carried it.

The only one of Graham's solo songs I've heard is "Freaking Out," from an Astralwerks label comp about three years ago. I quite liked it -- is it representative?

I trust that members of the Bad Attitude Club have been making time to catch up on this band's output, as sampled here. I look forward to your thoughts!

If you like what you hear of Blur and enjoy Gnarls Barkley, you will probably enjoy at least some of the Gorillaz if not all.

Waitaminit -- I enjoy *some* Blur, and *no* Gnarls Barkley. I suspect this means I would like a *very small amount* of Gorillaz. The question is: does this mean I'd like the verses, but not the choruses? Or only the non-falsetto bits? Or just the second couple of minutes in every song? What should I expect?

Good question, Hrrundi!

hvb
ballbreaker

The thoughtful consideration I sense the Bad Attitude Club is giving Blur since this piece was posted is impressive. I look forward to your thoughts!

Gorillaz succeed as they do where Gnarls Barkley fails because you get a respite from the all-falsetto attack. Albarn doesn't exclusively use it, as he also dips into his deep speak-sing voice bag, and Del or De La Soul and other "guests" step in to take over in mid-song, helping avoid the listener fatigue that sets in for me with Gnarls Barkley and the too-much-of-a-good-thing Cee-Lo presence.

Here are some illustrative YouTube Clips for the Bad Attitude Club to consider.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EPtxva5OYOs

This is a Gorillaz live clip with little to no falsetto. It's from the DVD to their Manchester gig, which I highly recommend. It also displays Albarn's stage presence, which is maintained even when he's in silhouette. (Best to start watching at the two-minute mark.)

Alexmagic mentioned the fantastic Blur gig we saw at the TLA on the Think Tank tour. When they began to play "The Universal," you could hear the whole crowd gasp in sheer delight. Here's a great version from that tour in a very different setting from the one we saw.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=D5g9l1vw-VQ

Re: Gorillaz

I would agree with Alexmagic on the difference with Gnarls and Gorillaz. There is a wide variety on the Gorillaz albums with multiple hip-hop artists, at least one deceased Cuban jazz player, and one old iconic actor.

But I would say listen before you buy. I have quite a few friends who are Blur fans, but don't get into the Gorillaz at all.

I got to see Blur eons ago at the Troc. I forget which tour. Great Escape? Perhaps even Parklife? They were quite good. I only have the Great Escape, which is kind of uneven, and an ep with "Tracy Jacks" and "Bank Holiday" on it, both of which I like a lot. I guess I need to hear more. There were a few cuts off of 13 which I liked. You can tell that record was the result of Coxon's discovery of the joys of Pavement. I'm not down with their ballads like the Universal. Ballads suggest an arena full of waiving lit lighters: no good.

I never much cared for Blur, but I did get Coxon's Happiness in Magazines. A friend of mine sent it to me from Amsterdam or something, and I think it's got some DRM on it that won't let me rip it for mp3's. I really like No Good Time and Freakin' Out, but the whole thing is really good. Having listened to the clips and vids inthis makes me think that having gottne used to Coxon's guitar, I might like some Blur if I put my mind to it and quit being a crotchety old man. Maybe I'll try.

Mr. Mod - who the hell was Whale? That Hobo Humpin' Slobo Girl video was weird, but for some reason I ended up looking at some of their other videos and I kinda liked it, but I doubt I'd ever buy it. I bet their shows were fun. Like a big costume party.

2K, Whale was some band from Sweden. That video was really big for a couple of months on MTV Europe, sometime between 10/93 and 10/94. That song and, yes, the other songs I heard, were pretty good. I was tempted to buy that album when I was over there, but I feared what it would sound like without that woman in red-checkered dress and Doc Martin's strutting about.

Oh, geez. I hadn't clicked that link and therefore had not thought of that Whale song in the decade and a half since it was a hit. Awful, awful song, so much so that not even the girl could save it.

One thing, though, and I'm sure it's something I've mentioned before: Sweden only barely qualifies as "non-English speaking." They have compulsory English-language courses in school starting in first grade, and I have never met a Swede who didn't speak better English than, say, Joe Vento.

Great One, I agree completely with your thoughts on Sweden as an English-speaking country. It's no coincidence that it's one of the only non-native English-speaking countries that can do rock 'n roll. The English language helps a lot, and gutteral sounds are essential. Romance language-speaking countries blow at rock 'n roll.

I don't know, I've heard some pretty good rock en espanol. And Brazilians have rocked convincingly too, though it doesn't sound like English rock.

I'm not yet prepared to get into my biannual attack on Romance Language Rock. Give me some time, BigSteve. I know there are a few exceptions. I'll have to figure out why they don't count.

Sweden is the only nation that still seems to respect hooky, melodic songs. It's like the deconstructionist period of Grunge never happened. Lately, it's like the golden era of AM radio.

I've heard you guys praise Jens Lekman before, so i'll point out two other exceptional ones i've heard lately.

'Son of a plumber' is a wonderful double concept album, that starts off as Beatles, touches on T.Rex, turns into Wings, nods at Bacarach and ends up as Nick Drake with the occasional Beach Boy instrumental - (which are actually hummable tunes, not just jamming).

It's a true headphone album, where carefuly listening reveals how intricately-woven the instrumental parts are, and it's also hugely sing-alongable, which i consider enormously important to be good popular music.

First four songs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6C-7rUj8IJE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbaW1h-NAzY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZKAhN5l7Vw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc9iPrfRwqU


And if anyone else in England or America is able to turn out stomping glam rock like 'The Ark', i'd like to know about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urCLhm_VBsk

It's like all of the '73-'74 period compressed into 3 minutes! Really fun album, the type of one you drive around the block a couple of times when you reach your destination because it's too enjoyable to stop it.

Ok, remember text reads as colder than it is. This isn't some angry rant about Blur, I'm just explaining my intellectual reaction to their music, the way I dissect and study everything I hear. I always want to know why things work for me, and why they don’t.

For some reason Blur always failed to move me. I can see the musicianship is there, but I think it's something to do with the melody and lyrical side of things.

Play the melodies of 'the Universal', 'Boys and Girls', 'Tender' or 'Song 2' on a keyboard and note the lack of complex melodic movement.

Considering they hype for Albarn's lyrics as being an apparent heir to Ray Davies' observational skill, (I’ll grant it’s a possibility, but it’s in crayon), I was never impressed. You mean it really, really, really could happen? *Really*? 'Beetlebum, what have you done?' He's completely out of his depth.

Pulp simply offer more for me to chew on.

IN DEFENCE OF PULP

I'm surprised you failed to notice Pulp's Jarvis Cocker, who is Ray Davies' true heir in both his skill with observation: his dry wit; his earthy love of kitchen sink drama; and his conversational tone that means his lyrics can truly be presented as prose.

The problem with recommending Pulp is they were a mediocre band who became an incredible one, but half their catalogue is entirely ignorable. They start getting decent around 1994, but from 1995’s Chris Thomas-produced ‘Different Class’ onwards, everything clicks beautifully, to the degree that their B-sides are always high quality, and occasionally surpass what’s on the albums.

If you enjoy Kink's albums like 'Arthur' and 'A Soap Opera' there is *so* much you'll love, if you can get past their love of cheesy new wave synths and old electromechanical keyboards, which I think add an interesting mix to the proceedings and a unique sound.

If Albarn has ever begun a song with something as clever as "I'm not Jesus, but I have the same initials", then I might be impressed. I’m surprised you didn’t twig to the lyrics in that (acoustic) version of ‘Babies’. Listen to the beginning:

“Well, it happened years ago, when we lived on Stanhope road. We listened to your sister when she came home from school. She was two years older and had boys in her room”.

He sets the stage for the story by offering time and place, (‘Stanhope Road’ is specific rather than generic, adding verisimilitude to the tale), then gives a line of action and sketches character, *all in three lines*, none of which rhyme, but the rhythms of the words work well enough to not to upset the narrative.

'Bad Cover Version' dates around from the same time as 'Tender'. Both are about feelings about ex-girlfriends. Listen closely to the lyrics, and laugh at the very clever video, (which even if you have zero interest in the band, is worth a look for RTH members), and it doesn't even use Jarvis' vocal track!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCKzAn0612o

‘Oh my, oh why’ indeed.

More lyrical genius. ‘Common People’ is a far more detailed and scatching put-down of someone than a track like ‘Country House’ could ever dream of accomplishing. The live versions of this are longer, and incredibly tight, with the band speeding up and slowing down the dynamics like masters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSXWWrIxSB4

'Disco 2000', was extended for the single version, with delicious added mellotron.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61ThRHYFQvU

That's every bit a detailed nostalgic reflection as the Kink's 'Come Dancing'.

“ and I said “Let’s all meet up in the Year 2000. Won’t it be strange when we’re all fully grown? Be there, 2 o’clock, by the fountain down the road”. I never knew that you’d get married; I would be living round here on my own; on that damp and lonely Thursday years ago.”

Here’s 1998’s 'Help the aged', a compassionate, caring song about being kind to the elderly. Or, maybe not. Listen to the lyrics, especially past the first verse. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPQGeJYaAes

‘A Little Soul’, Jarvis’ reaction on the tabloids tracking down the father who abandoned him, one of the saddest songs I’ve ever heard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGfYaLlQWVg

Pulp went on extended hiatus in 2002 or so, but Jarvis’ recent solo album was up to his usual standards.

‘Don’t Let Him Waste Your Time’ was written for Nancy Sinatra. I think this is one of the greatest videos ever made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1oMtwmTaNQ

‘Running The World’ was written in reponse to Live 8:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Her2M_zZDEI

Hey, why not a Pulp B-side? This was Jarvis’ reaction to meeting then-Prime Minister Tony Blair, during the whole ‘new labour’ period.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7b7DgOeMnW4

They're really worth investigating further.

Homefront, you are preaching to the converted as far as I'm concerned. Most if not all RTH-ers are aware of my strong feelings regarding Pulp. Rather than say any more, I'll point you towards my current project, a "song blog" (or "oeuvre-blog") reviewing every released Pulp song.
http://musicfromabachelorsden.blogspot.com.

But I still love Blur too. If you like, I'll explain why and how I love both bands.

Sweden is the only nation that still seems to respect hooky, melodic songs.

I don't see how you can say this, unless you are familiar with the music of all nations. And I don't see why Pulp should be a stick to beat Blur to a pulp with. They're very different, and the good qualities of one do not necessarily diminish the other's.

I knew it would be you, BigSteve. It's always you.

I was sharing two very fun bands listeners might enjoy, but no, you have to niggle niggle niggle away with your pedanticism.

I saw a large chunk of European Music dimissed with a wave earlier in the thread. No-one said much to call anyone on that.

I saw the Pet Shop Boys similarly dismissed, despite having a catalogue of witty, clever, intellectual pop songs and also having one of the most honest books you'll ever read about touring and trying to 'work' an album, 1993's 'Pet Shop Boys vs America' by Chris Heath that completely lays open the rock myth for all to see.

I selected Pulp because they were casually dismissed in the original post, and because of their shared context in the Britpop Wars with Blur.

I stated my reasons for disliking Blur, which weren't based on the musicians, (Coxon is a great, inventive guitarist), but poor melodic and lyrical skills, and thought Pulp had been unfairly dismissed and written off as 'disco' by the poster, who, with some encouragement, might enjoy what was on offer.

If you remember the time, and did enough reading of the press and reviews, it was Blur vs Oasis. Blur, (a little bit Kinks, a little bit XTC, and thereby completely safe for older listeners scared by new young bands to grasp onto), were frequently cited as carrying on the tradition of 'Village Green Preservation Society'. Albarn was called the new Ray Davies enough times that it became a cliche, and he isn't up to carrying that banner. Jarvis Cocker is.

Time and time again people make huge generalisations in here. Why single me out to justify every minute nickpick you have with my posts, seemingly because you and I disgree on the fundamental differences between digital and analog sound?

Speaking of which, I can't remember if it was here or not, but during one discussion on compression i mentioned the potential danger that long-term listening to clip-heavy music, (thus subjecting the ears to continuous exposure to certain frequency ranges), could have to one's hearing and theorised it might take 10-15 years to show itself.

A mate i'd been discussing it with forwarded me this the other day:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=577211

Wow, 70% of Australian 18-24 years olds are experiencing tinnitus, here blamed on 'playing headphones too loud'. Hmmm, if there was only a type of extremely popular product considered an icon of 'cool' and target-marketed to that age group that provided the perfect environment for exposure to unchanging frequency bands for long periods of time due to the nature of the sound being played, the direct result of which would be tinnitus.

*Gee, whatever could it be*?

No, i'm just an idiot who doesn't understand the properties of sound, or harmonic theory enough to be able to look at his record collection, note the obvious links between songs from different eras by different artists, hack them apart and layer them into something else entirely, purely for my own intellectual amusement.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~hazchem/Anonymous%20Bosch%20-%20Sweet%20Jane's%20Face.mp3

No, this isn't a 'mashup'. This is layering a song together from other songs treating each part like instruments that need to support each other harmonically.

The very nature of what i'm attempting can lead to some messy productions, but this is the most dumbed down example i can think of. Everything you hear is taken from other songs.

Within this track, to the best of my memory, you will hear, (sometimes playing 5-6 samples simultaneously which is why i consider it dumbed down, because i tried to make this as simple as possible because people just cannot seem to grasp what i'm doing):

- 'the Shining' by Badly Drawn Boy (acoustic guitar and cello)

- 'Little Black Egg' by the Nightcrawlers (electric guitar riff)

-'Shine' by Cyndi Lauper (drum loop)

- 'Sweet Dreams' by Eurythmics (synth)

- 'Mighty Little Man' by Steve Burns (atmosphere with bells, admittedly reversed)

- 'Private Idaho' by the B-52's (guitar and whoops)

- 'Father Lucifer' by Tori Amos (piano)

- 'I've just seen a face' by the Beatles (vocal)

- 'Does He Love You' by Rilo Kiley(mellotron)

- 'Sand Dragon' by Martin Newell (acoustic guitar and bass)

- 'My Beloved Monster' by Eels (electric guitar riff)

- '99.9 Farenheit Degrees' by Suzanne Vega (bass and drums)

- 'Sweet Jane' by the Velvet Undground (vocals)

- 'March' by Great Lakes Myth Society (brass)

Yes, i just an idiot who knows nothing about the properties of sound, and can't make informed judgments about the music i listen to. Judging on artist against another is, according to you, some bizarre, unfair circumstance.

You want me to take the bat to Blur? You want Brutal Honestly, where i held myself back before and simply said, "melodies aren't great, lyrics are poor, you dismissed Pulp, but they are better". Ok then:

Blur offer nothing you can't find superior versions of by their influences, so why not spend your precious time with the originals rather than a second rate immitation?

I have the albums, which were superficial fun for their time, but have realised i haven't listened to them a good seven years or more. They were no influence on my songwriting, for they taught me nothing i hadn't already learnt from other artists.

Coxon's solo career follows the template of wasted potential in the same fashion as Johnny Marr and Bernard Butlers. Investigate it at your own peril, because it's dreadful stuff. Even a more successful song like 'Bittersweet Bundle Of Misery' is ruined by an inability to edit himself as a song writer. 'Coffee and TV' also dragged on in the same manner, going around and around and getting nowhere. If he hadn't been in Blur, i doubt anyone would have noticed their releases outside a small cult.

'Gorillaz' is perfect music for old rock fans to prove that they're still young and hip enough to not be scared off by hip and trip hop influences and can listen to 'cutting edge' stuff, especially because it's completely conventional, unchallenging stuff. It's the perfect definition of sounding like your trying too hard without trying at all.

I can dismiss hip hop in that manner because i know how little time and effort went into making that track i offered above, which was more interesting to construct than it is to listen to. It's intellectually-interesting, but i wouldn't dream of calling it a great or groundbreaking song just because I, like Albarn and his cohorts, can throw together some shit on the computer. The only difference is their shit is probably done between bong hits.

Christ, Homefront, what gives?! Take a stress pill and think about it. Reading a goodly chunk of your angry, resentful, "I'm the Only One Who Understands" posts, I clicked on a few of the vids you linked, and I don't get what's so dad-gum earth shattering about any of it. I'm not a big fan of any of this stuff, Blur, Pulp, whatever that Partridge Family song that was supposed to be "glam." Anyhow, I am, yes, old. I don't like hip hop as it is generally made nowadays, but the way you justify your ability to dismiss a whole genre because of your Tom Mix Computer Collage Ring is like hearing somebody talk about how their tin foil hat lets them hear what the space aliens are *really* saying. Maybe I've misread the whole tone of your diatribes, and you were being funny, and not over-the-top intense and wound up. But if not, why single out Big Steve? I didn't notice him busting on your Pulp thesis in any way. Ease up, young feller! Ray Davies doesn't even *own* a mantle, so none of these young whippersnappers is going to get one handed down!

I saw a large chunk of European Music dismissed with a wave earlier in the thread. No-one said much to call anyone on that.

Actually I did, though I came at it from a different angle.

I saw the Pet Shop Boys similarly dismissed ....

I'm totally on your side with the Pet Shop Boys. Long before you got here I was speaking up in their defense. If I let a recent slight pass, it's because I know mine is a minority position here, and I don't want to flog a dead horse. I read Chris Heath's book 'Pet Shop Boys, Literally' after I discovered them (I was a latecomer), and I thought it was quite good. I'm not sure if that's a different book than the one you reference, or a different edition with a different name.

I'm genuinely sorry you feel like I was singling you out in some way. Whatever disagreements I might have with you over technical issues would not lead me to question your judgment on musical issues. In fact I was hoping you'd pursue writing about the Hoodoo Gurus a few weeks ago, because I was interested in hearing more about them. Even then it seemed like you were evaluating them by placing them against first REM and then the Replacements. Or am I misremembering the thread and who initiated that comparison? Maybe your mindset is just dialectical in that way.

That's fine too. Different perspectives are a good thing. But please don't take it as a personal attack. Disagreeing with each other is usually more productive, not to mention more fun, than a group hug around some artist everybody admires.

Homefront, don't let them get you down! Your didactic approach is most valued around here. As for this series of comments:

Time and time again people make huge generalisations in here. Why single me out to justify every minute nickpick you have with my posts, seemingly because you and I disgree on the fundamental differences between digital and analog sound?

This is part of the trial by fire that is Rock Town Hall, perhaps at its good-natured-yet-twisted essence. A lot of us come here just for this kind of behavior. In the "normal" world, people won't even hear our rants, so when we cut loose with a good one here and then find resistance, I truly hope we can build up thick enough skin to enjoy the attention and the nerves you've poked and then - THEN - have what it takes to continue discussing this stuff in a fun, instructive way. Please don't read this as patronizing - and any humor that I hope is included in what I'm writing here is intended as a high five to us all - but you've got what it takes! I've been moderating RTH for a long time now, and I treasure my time on our dunking booth. As BigSteve said, the reason none of the veterans jumped down my throat for my blanket dismissal of most of Europe's rock output and the Pet Shop Boys is because I've set aside time every other year to try to find a new way of convincing you that you're all CRAZY for liking that stuff. It goes without saying that I know my aim is pointless and silly, but that won't stop me. So as I say up front, don't let it stop you. One of the cool things I find around here is that for whatever any of us throws around and feels passionately about, there's always that chance that something's going to stick for a fellow Townsperson. It may be nodding in agreement at how good Hoodoo Gurus actually were or feeling comfort in knowing that you weren't the only person who bought Voice of the Beehive albums. It's all good stuff, really. You've developed a Rock Town Hall Identity. It may be burden at times, but have fun with it. Be yourself and don't let the bastards get you down. It can mutate. Over time there will be new chinks in your Rock Armor that someone will use to dismiss your opinions. Over time you'll also be recognized and respected for new areas of expertise. It's all good, and my use of "you" is meant in the plural form for anyone reading this and thinking about their own times caught in the crosshairs of rock lovers gone wild.

Meanwhile, I'm atwitter with anticipation over the thoughts of members of the Bad Attitude Club, who've now - I'm sure - fully considered any one of these Britpop bands we might have missed the first time around. 2000 Man's thoughts were most appreciated. Where are the rest of you?

Time and time again people make huge generalisations in here

Because that's what the goddamned place is FOR!