Paul Westerberg's 49:00: A Sorta-Instant Review
By Oats on Jul 23, 2008
In a move that happened too fast for most online music news sources to notice, Paul Westerberg released a new, online-only album today, 49:00, for only 49 cents.
Follow the relevant link on the fan site Man Without Ties for the details. At this point, it's available from Amazon.com and something called Tunecore.com, apparently the only sites that would agree to the 49-cents thing.
Of course, with Westerberg there's a catch. You get all the songs in one big MP3 file, and no indication of song titles. (Although another fan site made pretty good guesses.)
There's plenty of other curve balls. Firstly, it's only 43:55 minutes. 49:00 at times sounds a bit like an old TDK blank tape he saw fit to cram with as many songs and scraps as he could on one side. Some songs begin just before the prior ones abruptly end. Occasional six-second splurges of unrelated songs bridge one "proper" song to the next. You might think this is Westerberg being lazy, but I don't.
Like everything he's released this decade, except the Open Season soundtrack, this album is a one-man-band-in-his-basement affair. When he first unveiled this new direction, on 2002's awesome Stereo/Mono, he seemed to hit upon way to treat lo-fi as a sonic value. It's as if he realized he could get a better, more unique sound on his own, with rudimentary engineering skills. Rather than hire a bunch of session hands to try and fail to re-create, say, the classic Stones sound, he himself tried and failed to re-create the classic Stones sound. In the process, he found a cool sound all his own.
Based on one listen, 49:00 could be the next step for Westerberg's evolving aesthetic. The album functions equally well as an endearingly sloppy take on Let it Bleed and Gasoline Alley, or a musique concrete deconstruction of itself.
My take on Westerberg, which has no basis in any real interaction with the man, is that he's a lot like Neil Young: A curmudgeonly control-freak perfectionist who wants, no demands, that things sound messy. He wants that off-the-cuff one-take vibe, and has little or no compunction about dropping your ass if you can't supply it. I'll admit, it can provide a listener with a severe case of cognitive dissonance at times. But it also allows him to tap into that devil-may-care, funny streak that made The Replacements so endearing to a lot of people.
It ain't Loser Rock, that's for damn sure!
62 comments
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member] 
49 cents?! What's he trying to do, screw up the whole thrift store music market?!
Thanks for this, Oats. I'm not the biggest fan, but for 49 cents, I do believe I'll check it out.
Thanks for this, Oats. I'm not the biggest fan, but for 49 cents, I do believe I'll check it out.
2008-07-22 @ 10:40
Comment from: kpdexter [Member]
whoa! thanks for the heads up. I just downloaded it. I'm a huge Basmentberg fan. I think his stuff post 2002 is every bit as vital as the classic 'mats stuff.
ok, it just started playing. so far so good. I'll check back in later.
ok, it just started playing. so far so good. I'll check back in later.
2008-07-22 @ 12:33
Comment from: kpdexter [Member]
BASEMENTBERG!
Mr Mod, you can steal that if you want...it's all yours baby!
Mr Mod, you can steal that if you want...it's all yours baby!
2008-07-22 @ 12:34
I agree, KP. Paul's stuff this millenium has been excellent, and I can't think of anyone that's been more consistently good since Stereo/Mono. I do kind of wish he would get a drummer, because he's just a notch above Meg White there, but it works pretty well for me.
49 cents. How do we pay for that? With a credit card? Really?
49 cents. How do we pay for that? With a credit card? Really?
2008-07-22 @ 13:40
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
KPD, sounds to me like you and Oats need to craft a Glossary entry. I like it!
For 49 cents I'm in on this download. How lame would it be to ask a friend to burn you a copy and cheat Westerberg out of his haypenny? Speaking of haypennies, I encourage Townspeople to download the file through the Amazon link embedded in this post. RTH will get something like 1/100th of a penny for your efforts. Those 1/100 pennies add up and help pay for server space and upkeep!
For 49 cents I'm in on this download. How lame would it be to ask a friend to burn you a copy and cheat Westerberg out of his haypenny? Speaking of haypennies, I encourage Townspeople to download the file through the Amazon link embedded in this post. RTH will get something like 1/100th of a penny for your efforts. Those 1/100 pennies add up and help pay for server space and upkeep!
2008-07-22 @ 13:44
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
Westerberg pisses me off. He's almost 50 years old, and I think it's time for him to grow up and do his job. I'm not buying the "I'm doing a half-assed job in order to keep it fresh" excuse. That album where songs cut off before the end, supposedly because he ran out of tape? Please. How much trouble is it to make sure there's three and a half minutes worth of tape in the damn machine? And anyway how spontaneous could it be if he's overdubbing drums?
I think he's still smarting from the drubbing his first studio records got. This is his way of defanging his critics. I say if you think your music isn't worth recording properly, it isn't worth my time to listen to it. Not even for 49 cents. Show some respect.
I think he's still smarting from the drubbing his first studio records got. This is his way of defanging his critics. I say if you think your music isn't worth recording properly, it isn't worth my time to listen to it. Not even for 49 cents. Show some respect.
2008-07-22 @ 13:55
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
Your loss, BigSteve. I'm halfway through it right now, and it's GREAT. Seriously.
2008-07-22 @ 14:09
Sounds great to me. Kind of like flipping through a radio dial, hearing snippets, whole songs. I actually don't think it's all that lo-fi. His drumming gets a little bit better on each recent album, too.
2008-07-22 @ 14:30
Comment from: kpdexter [Member]
I gotta tell ya, I'm just starting my second listen. I really like this.
I love this off the cuff stuff. And yeah I gotta agree that his recent run is totally a response to the who gives a shit attitude about his attempt to hone his craft and get his act together on those last two Mats albums as well as underwhelming solo efforts like 14 songs and Eventually.
when he tries too hard he sucks. In his search for the perfect song, he sucked all the life out of the performance.
maybe like an alternative Steely Dan album... HA!
I love this off the cuff stuff. And yeah I gotta agree that his recent run is totally a response to the who gives a shit attitude about his attempt to hone his craft and get his act together on those last two Mats albums as well as underwhelming solo efforts like 14 songs and Eventually.
when he tries too hard he sucks. In his search for the perfect song, he sucked all the life out of the performance.
maybe like an alternative Steely Dan album... HA!
2008-07-22 @ 14:43
Comment from: kpdexter [Member]
ok, is anybody here familiar with the Back to Saturn X Radio Report track on the Guided By Voices album Propeller?
Art I know you have to be, and Mr Mod maybe...
some of this reminds of that track. the way Westerberg cuts back and forth between the best parts of certain songs, so that some times you're just left with a snippet, that goes directly into another snippet, or even overlaps like you're picking up two wildly different stations at once. it does create a feeling of flipping thru stations on the radio dial. it's a pretty cool effect, especially with some of these classic rock covers he's got on here. I like it a lot actually.
skip to the last 3 or 4 minutes of this album to see what I'm talking about.
pretty cool, no?
Art I know you have to be, and Mr Mod maybe...
some of this reminds of that track. the way Westerberg cuts back and forth between the best parts of certain songs, so that some times you're just left with a snippet, that goes directly into another snippet, or even overlaps like you're picking up two wildly different stations at once. it does create a feeling of flipping thru stations on the radio dial. it's a pretty cool effect, especially with some of these classic rock covers he's got on here. I like it a lot actually.
skip to the last 3 or 4 minutes of this album to see what I'm talking about.
pretty cool, no?
2008-07-22 @ 15:30
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
I don't recall that GBV track, kpdexter. It's not on that "best of" collection, and it's not on the "personal best of" supplementary mix that a friend made me, weeding out the tracks she also liked from the official best of release.
2008-07-22 @ 15:45
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
I mostly feel about GBV the way I feel about Westerberg -- get it together and record complete songs. I'm not paying good money (even 49 cents) to hear "snippets." I can flip the radio dial at random for free.
2008-07-22 @ 17:16
BigSteve, I'll give you that bitch about his supposed "spontaneity." If you play every note of every instrument and vocal on a track, how do you run out of tape? I think he just wanted to end those songs like that. Either that, or he couldn't think of a real good ending but he liked everything else about it. I listen to Man Without Ties and how it's supposed to sound like an informal thing, but he takes credit for every instrument. Maybe he did play it on a guitar for a friend or two in the basement and added everything later, but I have to try not to think about that stuff sometimes.
I still think he's been consistently better than anyone else the past several years. I actually get real excited when his stuff comes out, and I haven't felt disappointed yet.
I still think he's been consistently better than anyone else the past several years. I actually get real excited when his stuff comes out, and I haven't felt disappointed yet.
2008-07-22 @ 17:53
Comment from: mwall [Member]
I downloaded this and listened to it this afternoon. Much much better than I expected. The segues sound purposeful rather than tossed off--that is, purposeful in their degree of tossedoffness. It's also a little more pop conscious than I might have expected--am I the only one hearing some Pernice Brothers-like tones? Obviously I'll have to wait a bit to see if this music has staying power, but on a first listen I'm impressed.
2000 Man, you're winning points in my book here. I lost interest in the Replacements after Pleased To Meet Me was their second release in a row with only a couple good songs, and things go downhill after that. I thought fer sure that talk about recent Westerberg had to be your Stones-fetish Americana run wild. I may actually have to listen to some of the rest of it. But I'm still hung up that you like Lucero. The two albums of there's that I've heard are like a rough garage-y Mellencamp without tunefulness. Enlighten me.
And Oats, thanks for calling attention to all this. Let's hope we're witnessing the beginning of a 49-cent revolution. Doubt it, somehow.
2000 Man, you're winning points in my book here. I lost interest in the Replacements after Pleased To Meet Me was their second release in a row with only a couple good songs, and things go downhill after that. I thought fer sure that talk about recent Westerberg had to be your Stones-fetish Americana run wild. I may actually have to listen to some of the rest of it. But I'm still hung up that you like Lucero. The two albums of there's that I've heard are like a rough garage-y Mellencamp without tunefulness. Enlighten me.
And Oats, thanks for calling attention to all this. Let's hope we're witnessing the beginning of a 49-cent revolution. Doubt it, somehow.
2008-07-22 @ 20:08
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
Westerberg is a good example of two different RTH glossary terms -- Loser Rock and Fogerty Syndrome.
2008-07-22 @ 20:24
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
BigSteve, you're on fire as you continue to do the man's work!
I should be able to download this later tonight. I look forward to hearing it. Never having been a 'Mats fan (am I aloud to use that silly nickname without being a fan?), I do agree that they were better the more crappy they sounded. I'm probably in a minority of preferring Pleased to Meet Me, which has as much pop smarts as they'd ever display but no horrible lead guitar playing courtesy of Bob Stinson. Sorry Ma... is the other Replacements album I most consider picking up.
2000 Man burned me some solo Westerberg last year. It's all OK to me. I never get enough Rock Action from the guy's music, and his "loveable loser" routine runs out of gas early with me. I do like the fact that he's gone "lo-fi" in recent years, however, because his late-period Replacements albums and big-studio solo albums were horrible. The guy's music doesn't stand up to being too polished, too clear.
Thanks, Oats, for pointing out this album. VERY COOL concept!
I should be able to download this later tonight. I look forward to hearing it. Never having been a 'Mats fan (am I aloud to use that silly nickname without being a fan?), I do agree that they were better the more crappy they sounded. I'm probably in a minority of preferring Pleased to Meet Me, which has as much pop smarts as they'd ever display but no horrible lead guitar playing courtesy of Bob Stinson. Sorry Ma... is the other Replacements album I most consider picking up.
2000 Man burned me some solo Westerberg last year. It's all OK to me. I never get enough Rock Action from the guy's music, and his "loveable loser" routine runs out of gas early with me. I do like the fact that he's gone "lo-fi" in recent years, however, because his late-period Replacements albums and big-studio solo albums were horrible. The guy's music doesn't stand up to being too polished, too clear.
Thanks, Oats, for pointing out this album. VERY COOL concept!
2008-07-22 @ 21:36
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
I'm scanning through my first listen to this thing, and it's better than I could have expected. Somehow it seems to gel nicely, even though I'm still hearing the same Westerberg moves as ever. Good start, though, and definitely a totally fun concept.
2008-07-23 @ 01:44
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
Late to the party....
It sounds like the "tim" demos....(which marks the period when i lost interest in the replacements)...
that means it sounds like just about every other band i mixed at the khyber in the early 90s. In other words, it reminds me that the Replacements had SO MANY imitators!
But I definitely don't hate it.
All the talk in this thread made me think this would be some really raw sounding stuff. But it's fairly deliberate, and not that dirty sounding at all.
BigSteve, if you don't like the recording of this, then you've got a very weak stomach indeed for the rougher stuff (and an extremely limited sonic palette). Your comments in response to this album shed light on your stick-in-the-mud "CD's are better than vinyl...period" stance, however.
But dude, this is fairly tame on a lo-fi scale, to the point of sounding tasteful (the second song has nice interwoven acoustic guitars, the third, which sounds like Spanish Harlem Incident at points, has some lovely backing vocals to flesh out the atmosphere).
I'm about 13 minutes in now, listening to a pinky rock song that would have all of RTH slobbering if it was a lost Ronnie Wood or Stewart era Faces demo.
But since it was recorded in 2008, it means the artist needs to "grow up"? Stop imposing arbitrary standards and just enjoy it.
KPD, I know the GBV track you mean. And on this point, I sympathize with BigSteve. I wanted that pinky rock song to finish!!! It was nice and raw and had a great groove with good female backing vox! Why did he have to interrupt it?
Westerberg has always been half as clever as he is antagonistic. That's part of what you get with him.
It sounds like the "tim" demos....(which marks the period when i lost interest in the replacements)...
that means it sounds like just about every other band i mixed at the khyber in the early 90s. In other words, it reminds me that the Replacements had SO MANY imitators!
But I definitely don't hate it.
All the talk in this thread made me think this would be some really raw sounding stuff. But it's fairly deliberate, and not that dirty sounding at all.
BigSteve, if you don't like the recording of this, then you've got a very weak stomach indeed for the rougher stuff (and an extremely limited sonic palette). Your comments in response to this album shed light on your stick-in-the-mud "CD's are better than vinyl...period" stance, however.
But dude, this is fairly tame on a lo-fi scale, to the point of sounding tasteful (the second song has nice interwoven acoustic guitars, the third, which sounds like Spanish Harlem Incident at points, has some lovely backing vocals to flesh out the atmosphere).
I'm about 13 minutes in now, listening to a pinky rock song that would have all of RTH slobbering if it was a lost Ronnie Wood or Stewart era Faces demo.
But since it was recorded in 2008, it means the artist needs to "grow up"? Stop imposing arbitrary standards and just enjoy it.
KPD, I know the GBV track you mean. And on this point, I sympathize with BigSteve. I wanted that pinky rock song to finish!!! It was nice and raw and had a great groove with good female backing vox! Why did he have to interrupt it?
Westerberg has always been half as clever as he is antagonistic. That's part of what you get with him.
2008-07-23 @ 09:36
Comment from: kpdexter [Member]
for all we know that pinky rock song might have gone on for another 20 minutes! perhaps the man did us a favor and stopped it before we got sick of it!
2008-07-23 @ 09:41
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
true, KPD...so true.
This "out of the system" song is wonderful.
This "out of the system" song is wonderful.
2008-07-23 @ 09:46
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
By the time we get to the end, we listen to snippets of fully done covers of classic rock songs.
By the end, we have the impression of someone so awash in pop / punk hooks that they have overwhelmed him.
I find nothing wrong with that as another creative way to approach the art form.
for those who would like to argue, objectively, that it was an unpleasant listening experience, I can understand where you're coming from (the interruptions in the left speaker of the lovely rock ballad that was playing in the right speaker around 16 minutes in were unfortunate).
But personally, the listening experience was hardly a test of my ability to sit through it and not hit the stop button. The whole thing winds up having its own narrative.
Funny: to find it on iTunes after downloading it, I typed the word "west" into my iTunes search engine. and now that "49:00" is done playing, tracks from "how the west was won" are playing. it was the perfect segue.
By the end, we have the impression of someone so awash in pop / punk hooks that they have overwhelmed him.
I find nothing wrong with that as another creative way to approach the art form.
for those who would like to argue, objectively, that it was an unpleasant listening experience, I can understand where you're coming from (the interruptions in the left speaker of the lovely rock ballad that was playing in the right speaker around 16 minutes in were unfortunate).
But personally, the listening experience was hardly a test of my ability to sit through it and not hit the stop button. The whole thing winds up having its own narrative.
Funny: to find it on iTunes after downloading it, I typed the word "west" into my iTunes search engine. and now that "49:00" is done playing, tracks from "how the west was won" are playing. it was the perfect segue.
2008-07-23 @ 10:05
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
It's not even that I'm opposed to lo-fi. What I don't like is artists who can do better not trying very hard so that they can scoot by on diminished expectations.
I may be one of the few who thought the later replacements were actually getting somewhere. The material may not have always been there, but I'll Be You is probably my favorite Replacements track.
Westerberg's first solo albums weren't all that great, but I expected him to work through the problem and come out better. Instead he retreated into this half-assed approach. Sure it can be fun. He's a talented guy, and he can throw together something that's easy to like. But he can do better, and he's trading on his fan's love for him without putting himself on the line.
Every one of these recent records causes people to tell me that it's a return to form. And then I get it and it's the same old sloppy warmed-over Stonesy throwaways. It's no longer charming.
At least I'm not bitter.
I may be one of the few who thought the later replacements were actually getting somewhere. The material may not have always been there, but I'll Be You is probably my favorite Replacements track.
Westerberg's first solo albums weren't all that great, but I expected him to work through the problem and come out better. Instead he retreated into this half-assed approach. Sure it can be fun. He's a talented guy, and he can throw together something that's easy to like. But he can do better, and he's trading on his fan's love for him without putting himself on the line.
Every one of these recent records causes people to tell me that it's a return to form. And then I get it and it's the same old sloppy warmed-over Stonesy throwaways. It's no longer charming.
At least I'm not bitter.
2008-07-23 @ 10:07
Comment from: Oats [Member]
But he can do better, and he's trading on his fan's love for him without putting himself on the line.
This is interesting, since I sorta accused The Hold Steady of the same thing last week, and they're obviously indebted to The Replacements in many ways.
Although I'm a little curious what you exactly mean by "putting himself on the line" and "he can do better." He seems to be singing about things that are important to him on these albums: life, family, friends, mortality. He's not going to write another "Unsatisfied" or "Here Comes Regular" because those are very scared-young-man songs. There are goofy, tossed-off songs on these albums, but there's also serious stuff like "Let the Bad Times Roll" and "Crackle and Drag." And those are fully finished songs that don't require Josh Freese or Don Was to come in and add their two cents.
He's made it clear that he more enjoys this unfussed approach to recording, and I see no reason to cast aspersions, as I think overall it's resulted in some of his best stuff since the end of the 'Mats.
Every one of these recent records causes people to tell me that it's a return to form. And then I get it and it's the same old sloppy warmed-over Stonesy throwaways. It's no longer charming.
However, I should mention that, unlike KP and 2000Man, I don't like everything he's done lately. Come Feel Me Tremble and Folker probably could've been combined into one solid 43:55 album. Dead Man Shake did not need to be released. But, BigSteve, you've talked about how when you like an artist, you don't really get into ranking albums or preferring one era over another. It's a similar thing with my appreciation of Westerberg: I'm a fan and, therefore, always interested in hearing what he's come up with.
Also, let's not forget Open Season. Not very good, and a soundtrack to what was probably a mediocre kid's cartoon, but he did push himself back into a studio with other musicians, as well as working with a major movie studio. He had to field notes from the producers and shit like that, and adjust the music accordingly. I'm not saying that he deserves to be canonized for this, especially because he probably got a nice paycheck for his troubles, but it does not sound like something someone who isn't trying very hard does.
Oof long post. I am glad that people are enjoying 49:00. I'm actually happily surprised at how well-received it generally was here.
2008-07-23 @ 10:32
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
Good stuff, BigSteve. I understand better where you're coming from. thanks for clarifying.
But I think that much of Westerberg's charm is in his messiness. And if he were to try to conform to your recommendation, much of what made s want to pay attention to him in the first place would be lost. As for the late period replacements stuff "actually gettiing somewhere," sure, they were getting somewhere. But I think their destination, had they continued, would have been alot less interesting and very ordinary to me.
and Oats, I forgot to thank you for tipping me to this.
But I think that much of Westerberg's charm is in his messiness. And if he were to try to conform to your recommendation, much of what made s want to pay attention to him in the first place would be lost. As for the late period replacements stuff "actually gettiing somewhere," sure, they were getting somewhere. But I think their destination, had they continued, would have been alot less interesting and very ordinary to me.
and Oats, I forgot to thank you for tipping me to this.
2008-07-23 @ 10:56
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
But BigSteve, I have a question. Is it okay for an artist to stay lo-fi if you don't think he / she has the ability to "do better"?
2008-07-23 @ 10:57
Comment from: cdm [Member]
Big Steve said: “What I don't like is artists who can do better not trying very hard so that they can scoot by on diminished expectations.”
I say:
Maybe the intent is to create an environment that sounds more intimate and “real”. It’s still the same process and not necessarily any less contrived, but it’s a less cynical motivation. Either way, there is something that has always really struck a chord with me as far as the GBV and Westerberg go.
For the record Big Steve, I’m with you on latter day ‘Mat’s albums. I think All Shook Down is a great album (and yes, I know it’s essentially his first solo album), and I think their pre Let It Be output is extremely spotty.
Disclosure (if it matters): I downloded 49 but haven't listened to it yet.
I say:
Maybe the intent is to create an environment that sounds more intimate and “real”. It’s still the same process and not necessarily any less contrived, but it’s a less cynical motivation. Either way, there is something that has always really struck a chord with me as far as the GBV and Westerberg go.
For the record Big Steve, I’m with you on latter day ‘Mat’s albums. I think All Shook Down is a great album (and yes, I know it’s essentially his first solo album), and I think their pre Let It Be output is extremely spotty.
Disclosure (if it matters): I downloded 49 but haven't listened to it yet.
2008-07-23 @ 11:10
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
I think the term lo-fi is a bit of misnomer here. I suspect Westerberg has decent equipment in his basement. What I don't like is unfinished songs, and songs where he can't be bothered to figure out an ending so he tries to make us believe that he was so inspired that he ran out of tape.
As far as Westerberg's charm being his messiness, I think that's only partly true. The classic Replacements albums were recorded in real studios, and the tracks are relatively polished, except for things like Androgynous.
The subject matter of the songs was messier maybe. Oats says he's now writing about his adult concerns, so I think it's interesting that he seems to have reversed course -- now the songs are less messy than the recordings are.
And Oats, I do understand about being a fan and just taking new releases as they come. I probably would have put myself in that camp with Westerberg before, but I just feel like I got burned too many times.
If you're going to put that kindergarten cover on your album and charge 49 cents for it, you shouldn't be surprised if people like me take you at your word regarding its actual value.
As far as Westerberg's charm being his messiness, I think that's only partly true. The classic Replacements albums were recorded in real studios, and the tracks are relatively polished, except for things like Androgynous.
The subject matter of the songs was messier maybe. Oats says he's now writing about his adult concerns, so I think it's interesting that he seems to have reversed course -- now the songs are less messy than the recordings are.
And Oats, I do understand about being a fan and just taking new releases as they come. I probably would have put myself in that camp with Westerberg before, but I just feel like I got burned too many times.
If you're going to put that kindergarten cover on your album and charge 49 cents for it, you shouldn't be surprised if people like me take you at your word regarding its actual value.
2008-07-23 @ 11:36
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
To pick up on cdm's point, I wish to add that we need to dispense with the assumption that making a lo-fi record is in some way "easier" or means that someone is "not trying very hard."
talented artists have loafed it in highest-tech situations imaginable, and they have come up lazy while working the Tascam in the bedroom.
talented artists have loafed it in highest-tech situations imaginable, and they have come up lazy while working the Tascam in the bedroom.
2008-07-23 @ 11:40
Comment from: mwall [Member]
CDM's comment about creating an environment that seems more intimate and unadorned by high tech studio wizardry (I'll take that over "real" as sort of the direction you're going) makes me think that there's another thread to be had here about other albums of this kind that have succeeded. I mean, by people for whom that's not what they essentially and always do. Does anyone know Johnny Thunders' Hurt Me? I've always loved a lot of tracks on that record. But maybe there's a distinction here that needs to be maintained between lo-fi and just plain spare instrumentation.
2008-07-23 @ 13:50
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
Tonight's the Night would be a main piece in such a discussion.
2008-07-23 @ 14:10
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
As someone who was never much of a fan of Westerberg's music (I hate to keep prefacing my comments like that [not really]), one of the things I find fascinating in this discussion is the notion that Westerberg had much room to grow. Those earlier albums, when he and his band came off like the relatively bright high school dropouts working on an asbestos removal crew, had their charm and worked - even for a "Mikey" like me. But you stick a relatively bright dude in a tuxedo and take him to the opera and he's quickly exposed. Westerberg and the boys weren't "larger than life." As much as they loved those loveable losers in Faces, they had no Rod Stewart. Faces might have been the Chicago Cubs of rock, but they had Ernie Banks on lead vocals; they had star power. The worst thing that happened to a band like The Replacements was getting a shot at the "big time." They started wearing suits, hair gel, worked with credible producers... I'm not saying they should have turned those opportunities down - almost any one of us who had aspirations of any degree of rock stardom would have taken a shot at that route - but now that it's clear that Westerberg's not ever going to be a contender, he's right to make an album like this and release it through "gimmicky" means. This thing's brilliant, even if I don't get my 49 cents of listening pleasure out of it. It's like The Replacements Stink release. It's Westerberg working from his wheelhouse, no matter how humble that might be. BigSteve, I often agree with the sort of take you have on his "laziness," but in this case I think the guy's wisely working within his strengths.
2008-07-23 @ 14:17
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
BigSteve, do you really think that Westerberg couldn't figure out how to end these songs? endings aren't THAT hard to write. It's likelier that he doesn't *like* to write proper endings.
2008-07-23 @ 14:24
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Mwall, can you better explain your tangent topic? I'm not sure what you mean by "people for whom that's not what they essentially and always do." I'm not sure I know of that Johnny Thunders album to know how it differs from his other albums, and I'm not sure Westerberg doesn't already have a history of "creating an environment that seems more intimate and unadorned by high tech studio wizardry." Thanks.
2008-07-23 @ 14:24
Comment from: mwall [Member]
I'm not sure what I was trying to say was clear, Mod, and unfortunately even to me. I'm not meaning to include records like Nebraska or straight acoustic records. And Westerberg doesn't necessarily count in that, as you say, he's been at this for awhile, though I guess how successfully is a subject for debate. Maybe he's only breaking through recently.
So I guess I was speculating a little too much, maybe, or maybe not. Albums in which bands strip things to the bare essentials in a way they haven't in the past, and the album still succeeds.
So I guess I was speculating a little too much, maybe, or maybe not. Albums in which bands strip things to the bare essentials in a way they haven't in the past, and the album still succeeds.
2008-07-23 @ 14:36
Comment from: cdm [Member]
I think that there are two separate concepts that we're touching on. They may intersect but they are distinct (and both can be exploited to create that “feel”)
1. lo-fi recording techniques (Basement studio gear like 4 tracks, mics that cost less than $100,000,affordable compressors, etc)
2. Leaving the clams in. Recording with an emphasis on capturing a moment rather than worrying about getting a note perfect. (Oar vs Aja)
1. lo-fi recording techniques (Basement studio gear like 4 tracks, mics that cost less than $100,000,affordable compressors, etc)
2. Leaving the clams in. Recording with an emphasis on capturing a moment rather than worrying about getting a note perfect. (Oar vs Aja)
2008-07-23 @ 14:40
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
What does that even mean -- "doesn't *like* to write proper endings"? I'm tempted to say 'don't start something you can't finish.'
2008-07-23 @ 14:44
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
That "Albums in which bands strip things..." description now makes sense. Thanks, Mwall. Let me get thinking on this. The first thing that comes to mind is Nick Lowe's last 3 or 4 albums. Previously, he'd never been known for understatement.
2008-07-23 @ 15:20
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
Mr. Mod, how about those recent Sam Phillips albums so dear to your heart?
2008-07-23 @ 16:20
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
It means exactly what it says.
Maybe Westerberg has disdain for the mandate (which you seem to be all about) that one *must* tie things up in a bow.
He certainly knows HOW to write an ending by now.
Michelangelo left more sculptures unfinished...ON PURPOSE...than he completed.
Not that Westerberg is michelangelo, but don't you have the space in your head to entertain the notion that a songwriter might be tired enough of outtros, fades, and "let's do the chorus three times", etc. to play around with the whole concept?
I find the notion that he couldn't figure out a way to end his songs pretty silly...
and it reveals the lack of credit you're willing to give Westerberg...(like the idea that since it's sloppy sounding, he must not be trying hard enough).
Maybe Westerberg has disdain for the mandate (which you seem to be all about) that one *must* tie things up in a bow.
He certainly knows HOW to write an ending by now.
Michelangelo left more sculptures unfinished...ON PURPOSE...than he completed.
Not that Westerberg is michelangelo, but don't you have the space in your head to entertain the notion that a songwriter might be tired enough of outtros, fades, and "let's do the chorus three times", etc. to play around with the whole concept?
I find the notion that he couldn't figure out a way to end his songs pretty silly...
and it reveals the lack of credit you're willing to give Westerberg...(like the idea that since it's sloppy sounding, he must not be trying hard enough).
2008-07-23 @ 16:40
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
If he had put in the liner notes "I decided to just cut off the tape rather than force an ending onto this song" it would be more deserving of respect than the fiction that he "ran out of tape."
And yes I do have that space in my head, and I think songwriters should play around with the concept of the ending and the various formalities of songwriting. I just don't think that throwing up one's hands is a viable option.
And I object to the charge that I think everything has to be "tied up in a bow." I think you're giving Mr. W way more credit than his recent work deserves.
And yes I do have that space in my head, and I think songwriters should play around with the concept of the ending and the various formalities of songwriting. I just don't think that throwing up one's hands is a viable option.
And I object to the charge that I think everything has to be "tied up in a bow." I think you're giving Mr. W way more credit than his recent work deserves.
2008-07-23 @ 16:53
Comment from: Oats [Member]
I gotta say that on Stereo/Mono, a double album, there are maybe two or three songs that end abruptly, one of which is a cover. I can't remember about the subsequent albums, but the idea that this is some crutch he's been wheeling out ad nauseum in the last few years isn't entirely accurate. This new album does have a lot of abrupt ends, but there's still a radio-dial feel to the overall proceedings. So maybe it is a crutch here, but at least he came up with some kind of overarching sonic theme for it, which I think, again, points to the fact that the sloppiness does have an aesthetic purpose.
2008-07-23 @ 17:04
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
BigSteve, I don't consider the last few Sam Phillips albums "stripped down" the way in that Mwall was asking. I wonder if her "stripped down" music is more loaded with artifice than her kitchen-sink albums.
2008-07-23 @ 17:11
Comment from: the great 48 [Member]
Good point, Mod. I actually think those insane albums like OMNIPOP or MARTINIS AND BIKINIS are in fact the "real" Sam Phillips, the records she would make if given her head.
2008-07-23 @ 19:05
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Although Dylan was never known for making ornate albums, I feel John Wesley Harding is an album that succeeds by stripping things down to their bare essentials. Even the language seems stripped down from what we'd been used to from Dylan leading up to that album.
2008-07-23 @ 20:06
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
Remember that Dylan was intending those JWH tracks recorded in Nashville to be basic tracks which would be embellished later by members of The Band. They supposedly told him the tracks sounded fine like they were.
Would it even be possible at this point to do an 'unplugged' or 'stripped down' album without artifice?
Would it even be possible at this point to do an 'unplugged' or 'stripped down' album without artifice?
2008-07-23 @ 20:46
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
Steve, I'm sorry if you're hurt by my perception that you need to see things "tied up in a bow" but you've gotta admit that nothing you've said in this thread thus far would indicate otherwise.
You still haven't answered my question: do you think Westerberg couldn't figure out how to end these songs?
In what way am I giving him more credit than he deserves? I started by saying that this is pretty typical Westerberg songwriting and never really backed off from that. there are nice hooks in these songs.
The only points I've really argued thoroughly are *against* the notion that Westerberg "isn't trying hard". You haven't really laid out any substantial evidence that this record lacks effort, though you've made the claim a number of times.
So far, all we have from you is the notion that recording in the basement, and not writing proper endings suggest that he's "not trying hard enough."
Those are arbitrary, conventional biases.
disagreeing with such notions does not give W more credit than he deserves. I don't care who the artist is. I find such notions reductive and limiting.
You still haven't answered my question: do you think Westerberg couldn't figure out how to end these songs?
In what way am I giving him more credit than he deserves? I started by saying that this is pretty typical Westerberg songwriting and never really backed off from that. there are nice hooks in these songs.
The only points I've really argued thoroughly are *against* the notion that Westerberg "isn't trying hard". You haven't really laid out any substantial evidence that this record lacks effort, though you've made the claim a number of times.
So far, all we have from you is the notion that recording in the basement, and not writing proper endings suggest that he's "not trying hard enough."
Those are arbitrary, conventional biases.
disagreeing with such notions does not give W more credit than he deserves. I don't care who the artist is. I find such notions reductive and limiting.
2008-07-23 @ 22:45
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
I had no idea that Dylan intended to call in The Band for JWH! The advice they gave him was better than anything they might have added, and you know how much I love The Band.
Saturnismine, I'm still waiting for YOU to answer my question whether there was anything more to be milked from Westerberg's relatively bright asbestos removal crew worker tool kit.
Saturnismine, I'm still waiting for YOU to answer my question whether there was anything more to be milked from Westerberg's relatively bright asbestos removal crew worker tool kit.
2008-07-23 @ 22:50
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
Levon's book is likely BigSteve's source for the JWH / Band story. I agree...their advice was spot on.
Mod, don't let's divert attention from the more serious matters at hand for too long. However, if I understand your question correctly, I think the answer is yes, but not much.
Is there anything more to be milked from Myers's similarly limited kit? He looked okay tonight.
Mod, don't let's divert attention from the more serious matters at hand for too long. However, if I understand your question correctly, I think the answer is yes, but not much.
Is there anything more to be milked from Myers's similarly limited kit? He looked okay tonight.
2008-07-23 @ 23:25
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
I only listened to the game on radio, but didn't Myers throw about 174 pitches in the first 3 innings? This Phils team seems to have no ability to break another team's spirit. I probably value a team's ability to break its opponents spirit as much as anything in sports. Remember how good Iverson and the 2001 Sixers were at that? Remember how good Schilling and the '93 Phils were at that? Last September the Phils showed signs of spirit-breaking capabilities, but they seem to have vanished this year. When are Howard and Utley going to speak up with this team? How did these guys suddenly become the too-cool-for-school 1978 Phillies without having first won 100 games in a wire-to-wire division-winning season or two?
2008-07-23 @ 23:51
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
I just feel like W couldn't be bothered to figure out the best way to end some of the songs. If in fact he could figure this out (don't you think he could if he tried harder? ... he's done it before) then why wouldn't he do it? Because the myth of spontaneity is his marketing tool.
I haven't laid out evidence for anything about this record because, as I've said, I gave up on W and refuse to listen to someone who won't make the effort to make a professional record even though he's capable of it. I've bought the 'this is his best work since ...' too many times and I'm done.
I realize that partly what I'm doing is evaluating music by reading the mind of the artist, something that drives me crazy when someone else does it.
I've also wasted more time yakking about the new record here than I ever would have just listening to the fucking thing.
I haven't laid out evidence for anything about this record because, as I've said, I gave up on W and refuse to listen to someone who won't make the effort to make a professional record even though he's capable of it. I've bought the 'this is his best work since ...' too many times and I'm done.
I realize that partly what I'm doing is evaluating music by reading the mind of the artist, something that drives me crazy when someone else does it.
I've also wasted more time yakking about the new record here than I ever would have just listening to the fucking thing.
2008-07-24 @ 00:56
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
BigSteve wrote:
This might have to be the motto for a new RTH t-shirt.
I've also wasted more time yakking about the new record here than I ever would have just listening to the fucking thing.
This might have to be the motto for a new RTH t-shirt.
2008-07-24 @ 01:25
It's Westerberg working from his wheelhouse, no matter how humble that might be. BigSteve, I often agree with the sort of take you have on his "laziness," but in this case I think the guy's wisely working within his strengths.
I'm proud of you, Mr. Mod. I think you've exhibited real emotional growth here! I'll put in a good word with the RTH staff guidance counselor.
I'm proud of you, Mr. Mod. I think you've exhibited real emotional growth here! I'll put in a good word with the RTH staff guidance counselor.
2008-07-24 @ 13:26
Saturn wrote:
The only points I've really argued thoroughly are *against* the notion that Westerberg "isn't trying hard".
with 49:00 it feels like once Westerberg hit upon the radio dial concept, he was so stoked about it he took care to develop it. It's often hard to make stuff sound perfectly off-handed. From my own recording experience, some random comes across better than other random, and more than once I've found myself tweeking/editing random bits to make them sound more aesthetically pleasing. 49:00's segues make a lot of sonic sense to me, like he put a lot of thought into their placement, which is sort of like putting a lot of thought into a song ending, in a way.
The only points I've really argued thoroughly are *against* the notion that Westerberg "isn't trying hard".
with 49:00 it feels like once Westerberg hit upon the radio dial concept, he was so stoked about it he took care to develop it. It's often hard to make stuff sound perfectly off-handed. From my own recording experience, some random comes across better than other random, and more than once I've found myself tweeking/editing random bits to make them sound more aesthetically pleasing. 49:00's segues make a lot of sonic sense to me, like he put a lot of thought into their placement, which is sort of like putting a lot of thought into a song ending, in a way.
2008-07-24 @ 13:38
Comment from: Oats [Member]
Not to belabor this thread, but I've thinking about the plight of the guitar-based solo singer-songwriter. Seems guitar-strumming troubadours are frequently likely to fall into a creative cul de sac. A guy like Freedy Johnston -- talented fellow, had a bit of a buzz early in his career. Would anyone other than die-hard fans be able to tell his latter-day releases apart? Speaking of X in the other thread, how about those John Doe solo albums? Or even Ryan Adams, for Pete's sake.
If you're like PW and you're a singer-songwriter who plays both acoustic and electric songs, you have a few options, and they're not very original in this day and age. You can do what he did in the '90s, and record in nice studios with tasteful, non-Waddy session guys. You can try and form a new rawk band to prove you're still wild; you can do your alt-country excursion; you can get into loops, samples and efx. What else? Maybe the home-recording thing isn't much more original, but it still seems that "my gimmick is no gimmick" is a better option at this point than any of the above, just because it's not as well-trod by many, many other artists.
If you're like PW and you're a singer-songwriter who plays both acoustic and electric songs, you have a few options, and they're not very original in this day and age. You can do what he did in the '90s, and record in nice studios with tasteful, non-Waddy session guys. You can try and form a new rawk band to prove you're still wild; you can do your alt-country excursion; you can get into loops, samples and efx. What else? Maybe the home-recording thing isn't much more original, but it still seems that "my gimmick is no gimmick" is a better option at this point than any of the above, just because it's not as well-trod by many, many other artists.
2008-07-24 @ 15:08
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
Oats said:
...it still seems that "my gimmick is no gimmick" is a better option at this point than any of the above...
I'm reminded of my favorite mwall quote once again. I walked into our communal house/hovel after spring break with my new, slightly moddish razor cut. Townsman mwall, resplendent in his very ordinary jeans, very ordinary short-sleeved oxford shirt, very ordinary shoes, and very ordinary hair, mocked me in between bites of his cold-cut sub, saying: "oh, LOOK. HVB is a MOD. Look at the MOD. EVERYbody is a fucking MOD these days!" I could think of no better rejoinder than to sputter: "well... uh... no trend is also a trend!" Mwall pushed his very ordinary glasses up on his nose, paused for a moment, then observed, "yes, no trend is definitely a trend. BUT IT'S THE BEST FUCKING TREND THERE IS!"
I was humbled.
...it still seems that "my gimmick is no gimmick" is a better option at this point than any of the above...
I'm reminded of my favorite mwall quote once again. I walked into our communal house/hovel after spring break with my new, slightly moddish razor cut. Townsman mwall, resplendent in his very ordinary jeans, very ordinary short-sleeved oxford shirt, very ordinary shoes, and very ordinary hair, mocked me in between bites of his cold-cut sub, saying: "oh, LOOK. HVB is a MOD. Look at the MOD. EVERYbody is a fucking MOD these days!" I could think of no better rejoinder than to sputter: "well... uh... no trend is also a trend!" Mwall pushed his very ordinary glasses up on his nose, paused for a moment, then observed, "yes, no trend is definitely a trend. BUT IT'S THE BEST FUCKING TREND THERE IS!"
I was humbled.
2008-07-24 @ 15:18
Comment from: mwall [Member]
Those were the days, bakshi, although there sure have been a lot of days since.
I also recall fondly a drive we took into Virginia (down to Charlottesville, is that right?), when we laughed endlessly about a line in a Skynyrd song--not the payoff line, but the hilarious build-up: "a horse--woo!/and a woman--yeah!" Very few things have been that funny, before or since.
I also recall fondly a drive we took into Virginia (down to Charlottesville, is that right?), when we laughed endlessly about a line in a Skynyrd song--not the payoff line, but the hilarious build-up: "a horse--woo!/and a woman--yeah!" Very few things have been that funny, before or since.
2008-07-24 @ 15:39
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
There ain't but two things
LORD, in which you must take pride
And that's a horse -- WOO!
And a woman -- YEAH!
Well, both of them you ride!
LORD, in which you must take pride
And that's a horse -- WOO!
And a woman -- YEAH!
Well, both of them you ride!
2008-07-24 @ 16:07
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
Put *that* on a T-shirt, Mod... if you dare!
2008-07-24 @ 16:08
I finally had a chance to download this and I came and read this thread while I'm listening to it. It's up to 32:00 or so, and I like it quite a bit. I figured I would, but something about Westerberg really works with me. I think he thinks a lot like me, and there's just some sounds that never seem old to him, like the 100,000 pieces song. It's not groundbreaking and it's not always brilliant, but it's the kind of thing I can start playing in my car stereo and I won't care if it keeps starting over and playing again. I think it's cool that Paul is showing kids what channel surfing used to be about on a radio. You just can't do that with a digital tuner, and that's one reason I'm thinking about getting an old Marantz or Pioneer receiver for the upstairs room.
Mwall - I came to The Replacements party late, and I'm still mad at radio in general for screwing me out of something it turns out is exactly what I'm generally looking for. But I like all the Mats albums, and I like all of Paul's solo stuff. I like some better than others, but generally I only dislike the production and never the songs. If I always let that get in my way, there's so many albums I'd hate because hardly anyone seems to be able to record drums that sound like they do when I'm sitting in front of a drummer, so I just grin and bear it. And yeah, I do love Lucero. I didn't know I had outed myself on that yet. Apparently you'll either like them or hate them, but I'll put something together for RTH about them.
Mwall - I came to The Replacements party late, and I'm still mad at radio in general for screwing me out of something it turns out is exactly what I'm generally looking for. But I like all the Mats albums, and I like all of Paul's solo stuff. I like some better than others, but generally I only dislike the production and never the songs. If I always let that get in my way, there's so many albums I'd hate because hardly anyone seems to be able to record drums that sound like they do when I'm sitting in front of a drummer, so I just grin and bear it. And yeah, I do love Lucero. I didn't know I had outed myself on that yet. Apparently you'll either like them or hate them, but I'll put something together for RTH about them.
2008-07-26 @ 11:26
Comment from: kpdexter [Member]
2000 man,
I'm in your corner on the Lucero. Nobody's Darlings is one of my favorite albums of the past three or four years.
I'm in your corner on the Lucero. Nobody's Darlings is one of my favorite albums of the past three or four years.
2008-07-26 @ 14:46
Comment from: mwall [Member]
I'll be interested to see what you do with Lucero, 2000 Man. Thanks. I have Nobody's Darlings and it just doesn't do it for me. All tuneless whiskey-soaked singing sludge. But I only played it twice and gave up so I'll give it another shot.
2008-07-26 @ 16:40
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