Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member] Email
Mr. Mod: once again, you've provided a fascinating, well written description of the inside of your own Rock Rectum, but -- I'll say it again -- I think you're confusing Kentonism with Proctomusicology. I think your assertion that "Prock" is a uniting force in Rock nerd-dom -- one that crosses genres -- is accurate. But I continue to maintain that the unifying factor is the visible ruin of Rock's ancient past upon which all great Prock is built. Lovers of Harry Nilsson, Robyn Hitchcock, the Jam, Van Hunt, MC5, Brian Wilson, Macy Gray and many others can agree on one thing: how much more *solid* and *attractive* Prock constructions are when they're meticulously assembled on top of -- and out of -- the ancient columns scattered across the Rock plain. It's this search for "correctness" that defines Prock -- not sophistication or novelty.

02/27/07 @ 08:35
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
I agree with what you say regarding the aim of "correctness," but correctness alone leads to revivalism, which you yourself, if I'm not mistaken, pointed out was not the stated aim of Prock musicians. I think there needs to be a "scientific" element to Prock. There needs to be an "I'll show you!" element driving the music. "I'll show you I can write a pop song in 5/4!" or "I'll show you I can place a Pet Sounds-era bridge in the middle of a song also incorporating South African rhythms!" Even, as Jellyfish demonstrates, "I'll show you the wonders of Lindsey Buckingham's 'Go Your Own Way'!"

How you lump MC5 in with possible Prock musicians is beyond me, but as you know, there's little I like less than quibbling over such matters.

Let's work together on this, my friend. We must ensure against turning this into an ego-driven turf war. Remember, this is a working definition. We're nowhere near an agreed-upon Glossary term. Let's keep working at it. If it leads to nothing, then we'll be better people for the effort.
02/27/07 @ 08:51
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member] Email
There are *right* definitions and *wrong* definitions, good sir. We shall "work together" in pursuit of the *right* definition -- and yours is *not right*! I offer you a chance to heal by adopting the True Path of Proctomusicology; try it, you'll like it!

Re: MC5 -- these guys are on the list because a proctomusicologist would appreciate them *and* the bands that "build on" and thus self-consciously "update" their sound. More than anything, proctomusicolgists are fans of "record guide Rock" -- also known as "how many stars did that album get?"-ism. Thus, their appreciation for the MC5, even though they might not like their music.
02/27/07 @ 09:15
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
...yours is *not right*!

How dare you attribute this working definition to any one person alone. What I've tried to do is synthesize the working definition from our first go-round. This reflects what The People have said on the matter. This is what The People want. Isn't that what we always say The People want? You should be happy with the way we are developing this definition, whether you like where it's headed or not.
02/27/07 @ 10:53
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member] Email
We're to arrive at the meaning of this word -- that you made up -- through consensus? Be a man, Mod -- say what it means and then take your lumps! I have already lumped at you, so I'll not pile on any further. *I* know what it means; I'm just waiting for *you* to understand it better.
02/27/07 @ 11:37
Comment from: Oats [Member]
Here's how I see Proctomusicology.

Proc essentially fetishizes perfectionism. Ever hear the story of Paul Simon wandering around the orchestra pit during the rehearsals for The Capeman, tambourine in hand, searching for the sonically optimal spot for the percussionist to sit? Total Prock move. Or how about Jellyfish's Roger Manning, determining that the best way to get the Supertramp electric piano sound was to play the part on both a Wurlitzer AND a Fender Rhodes? Prock Prock. One listen to the "lo-fi" songs on Tusk is all you need to realize that Lindsey Buckingham was even a perfectionist about his imperfections. Prockier than Prock.
02/27/07 @ 15:08
Comment from: dr. john [Member] Email
Yes, but Buckingham was going for a stripped down, speeded up sound that approximated new wave. So one might say he was using prock against the very rock forms that shaped it. Call it post-prock, I suppose--
02/27/07 @ 15:56
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
I like what we've got cooking so far. Keep the good stuff coming. Check it out, RTH: we've even got a discussion of post-Prock in the works!
02/27/07 @ 16:07
Comment from: saturnismine [Member] Email
I wish to remind RTHers of this thread, where my posts on this topic were lauded by other long time members of RTH who had thunk long and hard about this topic (with HVB even saying that I was "on fire"):

http://www.rocktownhall.com/blogs/index.php/2007/09/27/spot_the_prock

Mod, I'm offended by your failure to include these contributions of mine.
09/12/08 @ 11:27
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
You should be offended, Sat. The entire point of this blog is to offfend you!

I did mention continuing discussions. I thank you from pointing out this particular one. There's at least one other workshop on defining Prock following today's Friday Flashback and there's the initial post on the subject, which is linked in this piece. Now that the Working Definition is once again front and center, it's likely we'll need to keep this topic on The Main Stage for the next couple of months.

Who says the members of Rock Town Hall don't do important work?
09/12/08 @ 11:33
Comment from: saturnismine [Member] Email
I knew it!!!

Listen, if you want to reinvent the wheel, fine.

but i'm telling you, maaaan....it's all there in sammy's "spot the prock" thread: a geneology of the word and its cousin "prock," a disambiguation from the term "prog."

the work is done.

rock is dead.

time to loosen up that pinky and start over on the 1 4 5 progressions!!!

my how i've missed RTH these months (seriously).

I love this god damned site.

thoughts turn to the pennant drive, football....
09/12/08 @ 11:38
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
So I went back to Saturnismine's clarification/summation of the root term that I initially thought needed defining, Proctomusicology.

Proctomusicology: music up its own ass about its musicological means of creating music.


Do we agree that this definition satisfies the need for an official RTH Glossary entry? I'm thinking that it might. Flashbacks can be helpful.
09/12/08 @ 11:57
Comment from: alexmagic [Member] Email
That does seem to be the ideal definition. Where I struggle, as an observer, is the distinction between a proctomusicoligist and a Kentonite. But that may just be a comprehension problem on my part.

On the broader subject of Glossary terms, I'd like to get back to the Rhythm Beard concept at some point: the general concept of one member in a band downplaying, muting or adjusting an aspect of his or her Look in order to provide support for a similar but more flamboyant aspect of another band member's Look.
09/12/08 @ 12:33
Comment from: Oats [Member]

On the broader subject of Glossary terms, I'd like to get back to the Rhythm Beard concept at some point: the general concept of one member in a band downplaying, muting or adjusting an aspect of his or her Look in order to provide support for a similar but more flamboyant aspect of another band member's Look.

Like Paul Simon losing his hair to help support Artie?
09/12/08 @ 13:07
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
We'll have to pull up the Kentonite Glossary entry and compare. Wise advice, Alexmagic.

I like that Rhythm Beard concept. I'm game for thinking about/discussing that. Would Carl Wilson be an early example of the Rhythm Beard, supporting his more emotionally flamboyant and extravagantly creative brother Brian?
09/12/08 @ 13:07
Comment from: BigSteve [Member] Email
saturn wrote:
I wish to remind RTHers of this thread, where my posts on this topic were lauded by other long time members of RTH....
My memory is that the reaction was more like "Lawd!"
09/12/08 @ 13:08
Comment from: alexmagic [Member] Email
When the Beach Boys all grew beards, Carl was graciously wearing a Rhythm Beard. Dennis went ahead and grew a Lead Beard. In the current band line-up, Bruce will often wear a Rhythm Hat for Mike Love.

In the Experience, Mitch Mitchell’s hair played Rhythm, but Noel clearly wanted to sport Lead Hair, which probably spoke of the tension between Jimi and Noel.

’75-era Springsteen would don Lead with his knit cap while the E-Street Band, chiefly Clemons, would wear rhythm hats. I suppose the Big Man took over lead hat in the late 70s, but it seems that he’s currently transitioned back to rhythm in support of Little Steven’s doo-rag.
09/12/08 @ 15:04
Comment from: eh [Member] Email
I was going to post something about Prock and snobbery, where the crucial connection is to "having reasons." Reasons to do one thing, reasons not to do something else, but always and forever detailing the details.

But then I read alexmagic's post and it destroyed my brain. Kudos!
09/12/08 @ 15:22
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member] Email
I think I can shed some light on the difference between a Kentonite and a Proctomusicologist. A Kentonite is obssessed with the technical componentry of music, and cares not whether the music is looking forward or backward; the Prock-ist is obsessed with the subject matter's musicological componentry, and always defines it in terms of its antecedents.
09/12/08 @ 15:40
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Between Sat's old, concise summary and HVB's clarification, the rock world can expect an official RTH Glossary entry in the coming days. Thank you, Rock Town Hall!

Alexmagic, the rock world now turns its lonely eyes to your upcoming entry on the Rhythm Beard. The rock world thanks you in advance.
09/12/08 @ 15:51
Comment from: Oats [Member]
I request that any upcoming Glossary entries on Prock contain examples of both Proctomusicologists and Kentonites. Judging from HVB's latest salvo, I'm guessing that King Crimson are Kentonites, whereas XTC play Prock.

One of the things that bugs me about '80s Genesis is the reliance on whatever the latest technology is. It's like the albums were made merely to display the latest products released by Simmons, Steinberger and Ensoniq. Is that a Kentonite impulse?
09/12/08 @ 16:06
Comment from: cdm [Member] Email
As long as we’re adding definitions, how about Pince Nez-bian: A rock snob who loves other rock snobs but only for the chance to expose their flimsy grasp of vital details in all things Rock.
09/12/08 @ 17:15
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member] Email
Oats, you're right on the money WRT King Crimson and XTC's respective Kentonite and Prock tendencies.

Of course, there's a Rock Venn Diagram thing going on here, as well. Some artists are both Prockists *and* Kentonites. Donald Fagen springs to mind. I'd add that -- slicing even more finely -- there are Prock bands (e.g., XTC) that contain Kentonite members (e.g., Dave Gregory), and so forth. But you'd have to be a full-on Pince-Nezbian to get into that level of detail.
09/12/08 @ 18:16
Comment from: cdm [Member] Email
Thanks for the support, Fritz.
09/12/08 @ 21:34
Comment from: andyr [Member] Email
Great Post on rhythm beards, Alexmagic!

How about the bearded Beatles? Who bearded lead and who bearded rhythm?
09/13/08 @ 11:51
Comment from: chickenfrank [Member]
I think Lennon played lead mustache during Sgt Pepper's, but McCartney clearly played lead beard from '68 on. His beard looked soft and full eonugh to make a pillow compared to Harrison's brillo.
09/13/08 @ 14:29
Comment from: alexmagic [Member] Email
It sounds like we might be in agreement that McCartney had the best beard, but we have to allow for the possibility that Paul grew that beard specifically to help support George's Gandalf phase and John's Jesus phase, which would make Paul's the model of a Rhythm Beard.
09/15/08 @ 09:09
In the Experience, Mitch Mitchell’s hair played Rhythm, but Noel clearly wanted to sport Lead Hair, which probably spoke of the tension between Jimi and Noel.

Are you referring to Mitch and Noel's actual hair, or their Hendrix-hair wigs that they'd wear for album covers (See the US Are You Experienced?). Those wigs were definitely support fros. I've always been an admirer of Mitch's natural long with the slight wave Breck girl hair look he sports in the photo montage in the gatefold of Electric Lady Land. Noel is a more problematic figure, but more for his lack of impressive stance on stage than anything hair-related. Perhaps the hair was about deflecting notice of his limp stage stance.
09/15/08 @ 14:55

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