And he was in Hawkwind, wasn't he?

Al Kooper is the only one who can come close I can think of.

The Lemmy article was pretty good I must admit but I'd say Al Kooper has him beat.

How about Phil Collins? He was an extra in A Hard Day's Night, drummer for Genesis, did the transcontinental gig with Genesis and Led Zeppelin at Live Aid, has played percussion on Eno albums...

Al Kooper was my choice before I read the Lemmy article. But refresh my memory, aside from falling ass backwards into one of the greatest recordings of all time and discovering Lynyrd Skynyrd, what else does he have on his CV?

Phil Collins is an intriguing choice. I'll have to mull that one over.

Eno

The obvious choice just occurred to me -- Dylan.

Johnny Marr is putting together a pretty good career as a Zelig too.

I don't think he out-Zelig's Lemmy, but Todd Rundgren deserves mention...

How about Kim Fowley?

Come on people, show your work! Todd, Kim and Eno are all interesting choices but you need to spell it out for me. At the very least I need a couple of bullet points spelling out their credentials.

Not sure why Dylan would qualify. Aside from being there when Dylan went electric, why him?

Thanks for calling on some Townspeople to show their work, cdm. A lot of work went into my entering Phil Collins in this Battle Royale, and Phil wants the belt!

As for Dylan, I can guess where BigSteve might go, and it should be a good argument. I can see why folks would nominate Eno, too, but isn't part of the Zelig mystique the fact that the person is unintentionally woven into the fabric of history? Eno seems to initiate most of his historical rock interactions, no?

In the interest of clarity, going forward, can we please refer to Eno by his full name: Brian Peter George St. John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno? I want to make sure we're all talking about the same guy.

The only reason I'm not the Zelig extraordinaire is that tricky part about having a "career."

Sir Rodney Bingenheimer

Maybe not a "career" but you've had some success, right? Run down some of your credentials for us

Clapton's been in too many bands.

Jeff Lynne sort of became a post-facto Zelig there for a while.

Incidentally, you know they're shopping a documentary about Lemmy, right? I think they're still looking for dough to fund the thing, but a nifty teaser can be found here:

http://www.lemmymovie.com/

Make sure you hang around long enough to catch Lemmy's joke at the end of the teaser; it's a corker!

I think a Zelig is probably a session musician with a diverse resume, but not a style that's too distinctive. Workmanlike. Someone like Kenny Arnoff.

By your definition, Oats, what about a Wrecking Crew member, like Leon Russell, who appeared on numerous '60s pop recordings you wouldn't associate the solo star version of himself with, was band leader for Joe Cocker, had his solo gig, hung with Dylan and George Harrison, and also released some mildly successful country albums, bringing himself in touch with who knows how many other diverse musicians.

Everything Jeff Lynne touches sounds like Jeff Lynne, which, to me, makes him not a Zelig.

Did you know that Joe Satriani sang backup vocals on Crowded House's "Don't dream it's over?" And, you know, he wrote that Coldplay song. So I'll say him. Plus, he had hair, now he's bald, so the look changed too.

Well, if we're going to consider session guys, I think the question is reduced to: Jim Keltner, Jim Gordon or Hal Blaine?

But merely being at a bunch of top flight sessions doesn't seem to enough. There's plenty of engineers and producers who have been involved with so many big names that it almost becomes mundane. Playing with well known people is certainly a part of the equation but it's not the only factor.

Also, I've been thinking a bit more about folks like Dylan. Giving weed to the Beatles is huge. But for most of the other milestones, Dylan himself was the thing of note, as opposed to Dylan being present at the historic milestone. The Zelig really needs to be a "B" or "C" curve guy to be considered. I'm not sure "A" listers can be considered.

I really think we need to set aside the Battle Royale for a few minutes and determine what exactly a Rock and Roll Zelig would be - and how that aligns with the Zelig character himself. If memory serves, isn't Zelig's appearance in these historical events a bit coincidental? I haven't seen the movie in years. I'd say pure session men can't count because they're hired specifically to be there.

I also haven't seen the movie in years, but my remembering is it's not a good thing that Zelig is the way he is. To be a Zelig means you have no real, distinctive personality, and simply blend in with whoever's around you.

It's been a really long time since I saw Zelig (though I found myself having another look at Crimes and Misdemeanors this past weekend, confirming that I hate that movie). I was assuming that we were talking about the character's chameleonic quality. This is why I suggested Dylan, because of the various personae and approaches he's adopted through his career.

But the quality of adapting to his surroundings doesn't apply so much to Dylan. It's almost not fair to nominate producers for this, because in most cases what a producer is supposed to do is apply his skills in the context of the artist(s) he's working with. This is where Eno excels, since he's worked with lots of very different artists without establishing a signature sound.

I named Johnny Marr for somewhat similar reasons. He's adapted his guitar playing to the Smiths, the Pretenders, the Pet Shop Boys, Electronic, the Healers, Modest Mouse, and the Cribs, but he doesn't really sound the same each time.

Reading the original post though cdm seems to have been trying to get at a different quality, that of being present at numerous crucial moments in history, either as a witness to or participant in important turning points. I gather, from context rather than from memory, that that's an essential part of the title character in the film Zelig, but I agree it's not exactly applicable to Dylan or Marr, though you could make a case for Eno.

I wrote the post below back in Feb of 2008. Belt please.

http://www.rocktownhall.com/blogs/index.php/2008/02/08/d

Wasn't Leon Russell also a Crypt Kicker, not to mention having worked with the Monkees? I don't think he counts as the Rock Zelig, but man, what a weird career.

BigSteve: You are correct. I (and the Rolling Stone article) are viewing a Zelig as someone who just happens to be at a disproportionately high number of rock milestones. Maybe Rock and Roll Forest Gump would be more accurate.

Sammy: You may have earned the belt on this one. The panel is reviewing Mr Spedding's career.

HBV: I can't call myself a fan because I don't own any Motorhead at all. But if financing is the issue, I am willing to donate $25 if it helps get that movie made. That joke was fantastic, and I usually hate jokes. It's all in the delivery I suppose...

Is it fair to say that the Rock and Roll Zelig would have been at Woodstock? That's a pretty big event for this person to have missed and still be able to lay claim to the title.

That probably strengthens the case for Al Kooper, but maybe it opens the door for Henry McCullough:

-Signed by Chas Chandler
-Toured with Pink Floyd, The Move, the Jimi Hendrix Experience
-Played with the Grease Band backing Joe Cocker at Woodstock
-Joined Wings, left after one year
-Played lead guitar on the original recording of Jesus Christ Superstar
-Signed to George Harrison's label, left after one album
-Is the guy saying "I don't know, I was really drunk at the time" on Floyd's "Money"
-Was in Spooky Tooth (OK, this one may hurt his case)

I think Tom Petty stayed at Leon Russel's house when he first got to LA and help facilitate Petty's early career.

Weird Wikipedia career tidbit: Al Kooper's first success was at age 14 when his group had a hit with "Short Shorts"

Oops! I just noticed that Sammy coined the term Forest Gump of Rock in that Chris Spedding post. My apologies for the infringement, Sammy.

Sammy already made a great case for Spedding. Alexmagic, you make a great case for Henry McCullough. I'm pretty sure he's also the guy who eventually got himself straight, became a born-again Christian, and wrote the song that opens one of those relatively recent Nick Lowe albums, the first in the trilogy of relatively recent releases.

cdm, thanks for bringing Tom Petty into my case for Leon Russell. I figured they'd crossed paths because Petty's original manager was Denny Cordell, who ran Shelter Records with Russell.

Considering that Sammy already placed Spedding in the Forest Gump of Rock category, perhaps his contender should be disqualified from this Battle Royale. Just a thought.

I interrupt this thread just to share what came out via a freedom of information act request for the list of bands whose music was played over and over as torture against prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. Perhaps the Philadelphia Spectrum was housing terror suspects over the last 5 days.


-- AC/DC
-- Aerosmith
-- Barney theme song (By Bob Singleton)
-- The Bee Gees
-- Britney Spears
-- Bruce Springsteen
-- Christina Aguilera
-- David Gray
-- Deicide
-- Don McClean
-- Dope
-- Dr. Dre
-- Drowning Pool
-- Eminem
-- Hed P.E.
-- James Taylor
-- Limp Bizkit
-- Marilyn Manson
-- Matchbox Twenty
-- Meatloaf
-- Meow mix jingle
-- Metallica
-- Neil Diamond
-- Nine Inch Nails
-- Pink
-- Prince
-- Queen
-- Rage against the Machine
-- Red Hot Chili Peppers
-- Redman
-- Saliva
-- Sesame street theme music (By Christopher Cerf)
-- Stanley Brothers
-- The Star Spangled Banner
-- Tupac Shakur

From the One Degree of Separation department: Leon Russell played on all the Gary Lewis & the Playboys hits. Al Kooper cowrote their biggest hit, This Diamond Ring, and Russell cowrote a bunch of the others, including Everybody Loves a Clown.

Not an epochal milestone in rock history, but those were some good pop records.

I would have entitled that piece Zelig of Rock but there isn't an iconic visual for Zelig like the Tom Hanks-on-a-bench image. Don't cross me Mod. You know what I'm capable of.

Was enjoying Chris Spedding's work with English jazz rockers Nucleus. In true ZELIG fashion, I was surprised to find him there...

So to clarify and reassign the titles here:

The Forest Gump of Rock is a person who just happens to be present at a significant number of historical rock and roll bench marks. He is different from a session player because, even if he is compensated for his role, there is a certain serendipitous quality to his presence. (see Lemmy, Chris Spedding, Henry McCullough)

A Rock and Roll Zelig is a person who has the ability to blend in with a number of stylistically diverse artists and can make a unique contribution without leaving too big of a personal footprint. He is different from a session player because he is more fully integrated into the band than just being a gun for hire. (see Johnny Marr, Brian Peter George St. John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno).

Feel free to fine tune these definitions as necessary.

I still think a Zelig should lack a personality of his/her own, and thus Marr and Eno do not qualify.

Not the definitive Zelig, but Pat Smear is a good, more modern Zelig for the kids.

Smear is like half Zelig, half Oliver.

Maybe this person is an engineer, or producer, like Tom Dowd.

“I still think a Zelig should lack a personality of his/her own...”

Like for instance, Ray Cooper: The Luckiest Man In Show Biz™ ?

Leonard Zelig, the human chameleon, right?

What about Andy Summers? Anybody who can go from being in The Animals to the Soft Machine to the Police to avant prog collaborations with Robert Fripp is pretty chameleon-like, pretty Zelig-esque if ya ask me.

Neil Young's 80s phase comes to mind, too: a tech-y / synth album, followed by a rock-a-billy album, followed by a Nashville style country album suggests a deliberate Zelig approach. The problem with Neil, however, is that he wasn't so successful at assuming all these different identities.

Summers is a good one.

If we're strictly talking chameleon-like qualities, I must bring up everybody's favorite RTH subject (damn, I should have used HIM as my riot-inciting example): Elvis Costello. I can't think of a genre the man hasn't tried to do, except for maybe new age.

Michael Nesmith is certainly a renaissance man of sorts. He was in a groundbreaking television series. Some might say he invented country-rock (He had a hand, but I don't think he invented it.) He helped create a music label with Jac Holzman. Wrote Linda Rondstadt's first major hit. He created and sold the idea that became MTV. He pioneered the home-video market. Produced some early music videos featuring Lionel Richie and Jimmy Buffett. Had a hand in a television series featuring the young talents of Jay Leno, Bob Golthwait, Whoopi Goldberg, Jerry Seinfeld, Gary Shandling, among others. Produced some decent little films (a couple of cult classics). Has written two novels. Friends with Douglas Adams AND Dwight Yoakum. He also served on the board of directors of the American Film Institute. These are just a few. It's an impressive list and their all connected to some culturally significant things of the latter 20th Century.

Not to mention, his mother invented Liquid Paper.

Zelig?

TB

Klaus Voorman, anyone? Was a member of Manfred Mann, playing bass and flute (who knew?) on Quinn the Eskimo. Came within an ace of *replacing* McCartney in The Beatles, then played with Lennon and the Plastic Ono Band, and sessions for people including Lou Reed, Carly Simon and Harry Nilsson (the American McCartney?).

All the while popping back to the desk to design album sleeves, including the iconic Revolver. In more recent times he has recorded with Eric Burdon and designed the sleeve for Wet, Wet, Wet. And a Norwegian punk band Turbonegro. Everybody's got to eat, right?

Klaus Voorman also produce the pop hit Da Da Da for German band Trio. An earworm from the 1980s that, in Australia at least, is the tune for Sakata rice crackers.

I'm 34" waist, by the way.

For more on Klaus, here's an interview with Paul Morley at The Guardian's website.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/video/2009/sep/04/the-beatles-klaus-voorman

What do you say, cdm? Mikeydread makes an excellent case for Klaus - plus his wife wouldn't let him do an interview with RTH.

Lots of strong resumes here. This is tough.

Summers is interesting but ulitmately lacks the Big Milestones that separate him from session guys.

Nesmith is a good dark horse choice, but I think this boils down to Vorman and Lemmy.

I'm going to give the nod to Lemmy because a lot of Vorman's milestones are somehow Beatle-related.

Aside from his own musical accomplishments, Lemmy was present at three distinct seismic shifts in Rock: the beginning of the Beatles, Henrix's reinvention of the electric guitar, and the Sex Pistols' contribution to the punk revolution.

Fair call but I'm tipping that like Zelig, Lemmy hasn't read Moby Dick either.

Damn. Trousers at ankle height.

To be a chameleon is to be *changeable or inconstant* (heaven forbid we actually define the term).

Lemmy's not a chameleon. and being "present at three distinct seismic shifts in Rock" is not inherently chameleon-like. if it was, then we'd be arguing for dylan, jerry lee lewis, the isley brothers and any number of other people who had longevity.

I'm not buying Klaus either. Just because the guy was in all these places and did all these things doesn't mean he was a chameleon.

Andy Summers, however, changed his playing style so drastically, that we wouldn't even recognize that the the same guy was responsible for all the playing he did with one or the other of the acts i've named.

but the true proof of his chameleon-like status is that he became a guy with short bleached blonde hair for his 'new wave' stint. nary a pink legwarmer wearing girl had any idea that the guy playing the "chop chop chop" riff on roxanne actually consorted with hippies. there he is on 'outlandos d'amor' with his two other bleached blonde cronies, for all the world to see. 'chop chop chop chop..."

and this notion that Summers "lacks the Big Milestones that separate him from session guys" is complete bunk. did you read that on the back of a cereal box???

if you don't think being in the biggest band of the early 1980s is a milestone that separates a guy from session musicians, then i simply can't help you, sir.

does cdm stand for Crappy, Dumb, and Misguided?

The game's already over, and a formal, though unsportsmanlike, protest has already been filed?

I've already said I wasn't sure about the legibility of producers, but I never got around to mentioning Guy Stevens or Jim Dickinson.

Stevens was an important player during the 60s beat boom as a DJ, and then later he produced the best records by Mott the Hoople and the Clash. There's three different eras there.

Dickinson was there at the tail end of the Sun era, played on Atlantic soul sides in the 60s, played on the Stones' recording of Wild Horses, produced Big Star, played on Teenage Head, produced the Replacements and Mudhoney, played on Dylan's Time Out of Mind. That's a lot of important work spread out over a lot of different periods.

But isn't as important aspect of the original Zelig the fact that he's just kind of there and isn't really am important player? Ok, maybe I could agree with Klaus.

Hey, Sat, glad to see you're back! How was Charm School, by the way?

I don't see any real difference between Andy and say, Jim Keltner. As I clarified above, I'm looking for something more akin to the Forest Gump of Rock. There has to be a certain random, non participatory, serendipitous quality to the person's milestones. They can't just have played in a bunch of bands, no matter how diverse those bands happen to be.

Contest over? Sez-a-who? Come now, these Battles have been known to go on endlessly. You should know better, BS.

cdm, believe me, there are many things I'd rather be doing, but hey, whaddyaknow? here i am. you know WHY i've come out of hiding? Because your stupid thread forced me out of retirement. The levels of wrong-headedness were simply too many and too high to ignore.

And while I hate to start sounding like the Mod, I feel it's warranted here: there have been many off list pats on the back for my recent contributions. Folks who wish to continue making nice with you are quite pleased with the ass-reaming i've given you.

and it is for them that i continue:

didn't you all clarify, earlier in the thread, that what the RS article is *really* after is a RnR "Forrest Gump"?

Certainly, that *would* include people with "random, non participatory, serendipitous quality" to their milestones.

But that's not all there is to being Zelig-esque. Zelig was "the human chameleon." His appearance and attitudes would change depending on his environment.

And to be a chameleon is to "be changeable or inconstant," as I say above.

Can we HAVE a more balanced example? Someone who has some serendipity going for them but also demonstrates the ability to change?

Or are you forgetting about that quality
So, sure, Lemmy was in all these places. But he was recognizably Lemmy the whole time. And Klaus Voorman never really *changed* in any of his new environments. Same mediocre bass throughout.

Your Jim Keltner comment is baffling. In fact, he's precisely the serendipitous character you seem to be after in your half right definition of a r n r Zelig, yet you use him as a guy who "just played in a bunch of bands."

And I must demur at your continued slights to Andy Summers, which seem willful, and not based on a true interpretation of his chameleon-like career. Not that I'm a huge fan of his, but in the pantheon of R n R Zeligs, I can't think of anyone else who better fits the bill.

I'll say it again; not only did he adapt to extremely diverse environments to the point of fitting in seamlessly, his appearance actually did change when he entered each one.

He played RnB w/ the Animals, Prog with the Soft Machine, new wave with the Police, and Avant Prock w/ Robert Fripp.

He's *just like Leonard freaking Zelig.*

Hugs and kisses, Sat.

I was just throwing Nez out there as a dark horse. I don't know if there's a real threat. I will, however, point out that The Monkees gave Hendrix his first major exposure to American audiences when he opened for them. From what I understand, Nez and Jimi remained close.

It's in his bio, but I can't confirm it solidly. Nesmith did some time as a Stax session musician in Memphis. If it is indeed true, then that certainly will up his creds. This information is stated in several of his bios, so I have no reason to not believe it.

PLUS: Look at the film for "A Day In The Life." I believe it was shot during the orchestral recording at Abbey Road. Who's that dude sitting there casually chatting with Lennon? Oh, yeah. It's ol' Wool Hat himself! I know that he had nothing to do with the writing or recording of that song, but he was close enough to be around.

Chameleon? Check. His first solo record (while still a Monkee) is an instrumental marching band on acid (with banjos thrown in). Yeah. He did the country-rock thing for a number of years, but he also did a new agey record (complete with a story) and some decent L.A.-driven pop/rock. His latest solo release is sort of loungey. He definitely has gone beyond doing just country-tinged pop tunes.

Just a couple of more to state the case of Michael Nesmith.

TB

Sat says: “and it is for them that i continue:”

I say: And I applaud your selflessness in standing up for the teeming, albeit unverifiable, masses, you brave, brave man.

Regardless of who eventually walks off with the belt, I will take pride in having incited you out of hiding.

Keltner (my favorite drummer, by the way) like many session players, can adapt himself to a variety of styles, just like Andy Summers. It takes more than that to win the day here.

I called it Zelig initially because the Rolling Stone writer did but as I mentioned above, we’re really talking about the Forest Gump of Rock.

Fondly,
cdm

Hendrix, Lennon and the invention of MTV. The Nez is moving up the ranks.

Thoughts, Sat?

Two candidates who have not yet been mentioned and about whom others probably know more: Ry Cooder and T-Bone Burnett. Both have maintained long, wide-ranging careers while, in the case of Cooder, especially, displaying absolutely ZERO personal characteristics.

I'll put aside Burnett, because he's finally achieved an actual identity as a producer and wearer of slightly old-fashioned suits, but prior to that Coen brothers' soundtrack and the Plant/Kraus album, he would have been in the mix.

Cooder has been associated with everyone from Beefheart, Taj Mahal, the Stones, Nick Lowe, John Hiatt, those old Cuban guys, film soundtracks (Paris, Texas, right?), and much more. He's never really considered a "session man," the way Jim Keltner can be considered. He's occasionally the organizer of projects, like the Cuban stuff, but he's more of a Presence on recordings than a "special guest" or even a "Sideman's Sideman," a term that might better apply to Nils Lofgren.

If you can't spot Ry Cooder walking down an empty street, HAND OVER THE BELT!

Let me clarify a previous statement: Nez and Jimi were not "close." They were about a close as any rock-type people get, but they didn't hang out. Nesmith says that he saw Jimi just before he died and that he was very depressed about his music. Michael encouraged him. "Man, you invented psychedelic music..."

Same with John. From the stuff that I read, when The Monkees went over to England, Nez stayed with the Lennons. This was all during the recording of Pepper's, which would explain Michael's presence at the session. John thought enough of him that he invited Nez to be a houseguest.

Frank Zappa was also close enough to Nez that he even tried to teach Nez some lead guitar. Of course. their friendship also lead to one of the funniest guest spots in TV history:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgNxuNaYHsk

(I'm even convincing myself here. And I voted for Lemmy in the poll...)

PS--Thanks for giving me the opportunity to revote! I reconvinced myself. Dark horse indeed!

TB

Mr Mod, Cooder only works for you in this context because you're not really that familiar with his work. He's got way too much personality to qualify as a Zelig/Gump. It's just that it's most apparent on his own records, especially the recent 'California trilogy.' I could spot him or his guitar sound anywhere. All the projects you listed are like defining him by his day job.

How about rock critic Paul Williams? There during the recording of Smile (and I think maybe ingesting some of the same stuff Brian Wilson was ingesting). There during John & Yoko's bed-in in Toronto and for the recording of Give Peace A Chance. And other stuff I can't recall now.

Oh, and he was in that Phantom movie - wait, wrong Paul Williams.