Wow. I can't believe the number of semi-submerged memories of the hours I've spent watching utter garbage in clubs. I try to ak-sent-yoo-8 the positive in general, you know, so I probably blank most of that out. But Oh, Good Lord! The drivel. And the punk rock drivel had the added pungency because every half-assed band believed that the half that was not assed was genius, and the ass half was pure punk cred. Waiting through sets until your band would play, too cold to go outside, or whatever. You often couldn't even converse for the volume. A good night could be characterized as one in which another band on the bill had a funny name. That Germs garbage is like a petri dish of lame-ass punk concentrate. But thank you for sharing all the same. It's one fetid little house on Memory Lane I don't think I've ever visited!

The only Germs worth half a crap is the demo of "Counting," as heard on the LA volume of Rhino's DIY series. That's the one where the song kind of trails off while Darby starts listing all the different ways the take sucked, all of which are undeniably true.

Not sure how many people actually take the Germs at all seriously, frankly. Honestly, weren't most of the first-wave LA punk bands shit? There's like, X and a couple of singles by the Alley Cats, but other than that, LA punk was pretty much worthless until the hardcore years.

I take them seriously. One of the great bands of their era and with more staying power in terms of what still seems listenable today. Killer rhythm section and some combination of out of control/pseudo poetic Stones mumble at hyper speed. Husker Du, a much less capable band on early releases, followed through on the implications of the Germs sound.

There's like, X and a couple of singles by the Alley Cats, but other than that, LA punk was pretty much worthless until the hardcore years..

Plugz, Zeroes, Fear, The Dils, Suburban Lawns, Black Flag.

Non-Punk LA bands playing Punk clubs in 1979: Go-Go's, Plimsouls, Kingbees, Slow Children, Wall of Voodoo, 20/20

i love the plugz and fear

Love the new series idea here in the Halls of Rock!

Yes - I never understood the appeal of the Germs; guess its one of those "You had to be there man!!!" things.

But as others point out - you can't write that whole scene off. I'll also say I like the goofballs the Angry Samoans and the Dickies.

Where's Berlyant when you need him? We need his apologetic take on this useless crap. For my money, there was no surer sign that Western civilization had started eating its own shit than than when "bands" like this one got taken seriously. Enjoying this spectacle is like clapping and cheering when Lisa Suckdog takes a piss in a cat litter box. I ask: why? I suppose the lame-ass answer is, to paraphrase the billionaire: if you have to ask, you'll never get it. To which I say: yay for me and my lack of sophistication!

HVB

As folks know, I was never a fan of hardcore. To me, 99% of it sounds like nothing more than guys who grew up wanting to be Black Sabbath or Deep Purple but then gave up on that and became "punk" once they realized that there was more to playing heavy metal than wrapping your thumb around the low E string of an electric guitar. Over the years I've come to realize that Black Flag was a rare, often great band from that scene. Unlilke most of their peers, they stuck to their vision of growing up to be a garage band version of Black Sabbath. A lot of their early songs, meanwhile, stuck together like fun punk rock songs were meant to stick.

Did that movie on the life of Darby Crash ever come out? Talk about death selling...

Sammy, we need to talk about that graphic. I thought we were running a classy rock discussion salon here.

I have to hate the Germs now? Dag. We lose so much as we get older.

Nobody like "Lexicon Devil"? Isn't it one of the definitive hardcore blueprints? No one likes Pat Smear? The GI album?

I think they're kind of minor and they're reputation has been over-inflated in recent years (that biopic is a real snore) but the Germs earned their place in my collection.

It is funny how my perceptions of Darby Crash have changed from "psycho older guy" to "suburban goofus", but I'm long past looking for leadership from my musical faves.

Funny too how for Andy they being up bad memories of punks. I don't think I ever met a real "punk" until years after I started listening to the music. To a small town South Jersey hick like me, real punk rockers were like polar bears, things that lived in the wild, way far away.

I bought the Germs LP when it came out. Even at the time when I was besotted with punk I thought it was crap. There was so much other good stuff coming out, I just let it go and moved on. The after-the-fact glorification of Crash always mystified me. Heroin chic or heroin shit?

I'm going to be honest - in a lighthearted way, for those of you who don't know me: If I could take part in any Rock Rumble, it wouldn't be Mods vs Rockers, it would be Me vs Hardcore Dudes. I'd rather mix it up in a back alley with hardcore dudes than even the members of Journey and Styx, the two bands I dislike above all other bands. It's personal. General Slocum, HVB, Andyr, and anyone else can join me, if they'd like. Those hardcore guys (and few girls) sucked so much joy out of my entry into the music world. Thank god I eventually met a couple of their sympathizers and realized they weren't horrible people. Nevertheless, I'm still scarred by the nonmusical expectations that scene brought down on my young, musical vision. Go ahead, beast, poop on those knuckleheads!

Mod: Sorry about the low class graphic. I gussied it up a bit for ya. Better?

I have always though liked Pat Smear's moniker.

Now THAT'S classy! Thanks, Sammy.

my oh my...what a bunch of angry men you are!

maybe you should take out a Germs record, turn it up really loud, and vent that anger by thrashing around for a little while.

that might make you feel better.

I'll say it again: GI is one of the essential punk albums, maybe the single purest example of American punk that wasn't really roots rock in disguise. There are one or two less successful numbers but other than that it still delivers the goods today. Not as great as the best British punk though, I'd have to say.

I do feel bad for Mr. Mod, though, so emotionally wounded by, well, by what? I still don't understand that part. He wants to fight, that's for sure, if only he can find the right skinny pale loser with a nose ring to take out his angst on.

Here's what still stings, Mwall:

I enter elementary school a problem child with an odd mix of fairly severe hardships and tremendous opportunities. By middle school I very slowly learn to be fairly well-adjusted, with my eyes on the prize of one day actually being cool.

In 10th grade I discover punk rock - the real stuff, the MUSIC - at the same time I re-embrace the '60s stuff my uncle turned me onto as a child. I have a vague idea of what it may mean to be cool (ie, The Plan), and I start a band with my equally uncool best friend.

I begin to develop the cool persona equivalent of a teenage mustache during an otherwise disastrous start to my colleage career. I return home to take my high school band to the next level. We self-produce an ep that is more highly regarded than we could have imagined, even landing a review and color band photo in SPIN magazine.

From many perspectives, The Plan is coming into focus. However, I soon find that we're a good 7 years too late to capitalize on The Plan. Underground success no longer meant getting a garage-pop record out on Sire that only 2000 people might ever buy new, as it did when The Plan was first hatched. Shit, all the kids who were cooler than us way back when quickly moved to the head of the class in the US underground. I mean really cooler than us - the real rebellious kids who got drunk, got laid, and made doughnuts on people's lawn - not any of us nancy-boy dreamers. It was all about credibility, maaaaannnnn, riding in rundown vans, smashing emptied beer cans against your forehead, raising the beer-soaked fist. (Actually it was probably about not having a 4"x4" lodged up your butt, but I'm telling this story like it felt at the time.) None of these hardcore-based Rock Key Opinion Leaders (RKOLs) dreamed of releasing a couple of fairly successful albums and then retiring to the country to make more personal albums. These RKOLs wanted to rock and party and bitch about Reagan...and shit. There was a very brief window in the late-70s when Rock Nerds were sneaking onto the Cool Train, but man those doors shut fast by the time we might have slipped on. Then, as the bus pulled away, we see those fuckers from REM, each one of them taking an entire seat.

So that's my beef - working too hard on The Plan to find our best efforts being judged by guys who couldn't get past wrapping their thumbs around the guitar neck to learn how to play "Iron Man" properly.

Word!

I'm trying to think my first encounter with reeeeal punks. Maybe our gig in 1981 at the Starlight Ballromm with The Never?

That probably was it, Andyr. I'm sorry if this is too painful for you to revisit on a beautiful Friday.

Okay, I'll admit I'd forgotten about the Dickies.

Plugz = other than "Hombre Secreto," crap

Zeroes = crap

Fear = crap

The Dils = were they from LA? I've always had them in my mind as an SF band, like the Avengers (who were ace). If so, I will grant a few Dils songs, although I've always found their lyrics disingenuous, like they decided to be the class warfare band just because it filled a market niche.

Suburban Lawns = not punk, but I liked them a lot (see also Wall of Voodoo)

Black Flag = the first of the second generation/hardcore bands, not really a part of the whole Masque scene that I think of as first-wave LA punk

Unmentioned but also crap: the Bags, the Weirdos

Saturn, since when are you the zen frickin' doctor, too ivory towered to throw down in a bullshit-calling-fest? Turning up the Germs is what started this particular outburst. And they made plenty of songs that wouldn't have captured my attention pro or con. I, for my part, was only responding to that live video.

If I want infantilism and limerick-style punk rock, I'll go Teenage Jesus and the Jerks. If you were out and about in the narrow-minded alleyway that was punk rock in bars, and couldn't even generate a moderate sense of righteous indignation at its wannabe nihilism, then check your I.D. You might just be an academic!

I appreciate the honest and even poignant response, Mod, and I even have sympathy for it. All arts and music social scenes take themselves and their styles and politics and etc very seriously, and if you run into that from a different set of values, it can be unpleasant. The values you wanted to get behind and the values of others on that scene seriously clashed, I can see that.

But of course I assume that, since you're not from L.A. and were not spending much time there then, your criticisms don't have that much to do with things there so much as what you saw happening around you in Philly? I get concerned, I think, when people generalize whole scenes, which are always made up of various individuals and all their differences, and say that they were all about this or that one thing--and I wonder whether some of your comments don't run the risk of that kind of stereotyping. So I guess I'm more sympathetic to your pain than to your generalized description of who was behaving in what way when.

Just came back from a car ride and played GI again. It remains a really strong record, with songs that are surprisingly well-structured for all the chaos that is also part of the noise they bring. I think some of the best rock and roll happens when song structure is pushed to the point of collapse but then doesn't, and I think one can say fairly that the Germs do that on GI.

So Mod, you really thought the brass ring was there for your taking? To put it rather bluntly, you appear to have no idea of the number of obstacles to success in the music business.

Mwall wrote, with compassion:

But of course I assume that, since you're not from L.A. and were not spending much time there then, your criticisms don't have that much to do with things there so much as what you saw happening around you in Philly?

Where's Berlyant to remind us that one had to have lived in the zip code where that horrible Garden State movie was set to have apreciated it?

What I saw in Philly at that time, Mwall - and beyond, because we did get out a bit and got reviews from fanzines based on the West Coast and elsewhere - is mainly what scarred me. However, I blame the DC hardcore scene about as much as I do the LA hardcore scene. Those two cities churned out the most successful failed metalheads. Can anyone make the case that one of those hardcore scenes was better or worse than the other? I can't. How The Great 48 characterizes Black Flag as second-generation LA hardcore is beyond my comprehension. I don't doubt him, but how late to the party were they, like a year? Whatever. They were, artistically, head and shoulders above those other hardcore bands.

Dr. John, to put it bluntly I was attempting to humorously recount an innocently pathetic time in my life. Jeez!

The L.A. hardcore scene was much bigger than DC's, obviously, and I think mainly for that reason they made more good music. And of course this raises the issue of where you draw the line on the idea of the "hardcore scene." If you narrow it just to bands who have a more conventional hardcore sound, then you're missing most of what was best, right, since most of the best music always mixes up the formula (whatever the formula is) in some key way. But if you count X and even the Blasters along with The Germs, The Minutemen and Black Flag, along with some occasional moments from lesser bands, that's gonna outstrip Minor Threat/Fugazi, Bad Brains, and Half Japanese, even if you throw in Tommy Keene as a closely connected fellow traveler.

http://www.brooklynvegan.com/archives/2008/05/germs_biopic_hi.html

'Germs Biopic Hitting U.S. Theaters In August'

The Germs biopic "What We Do Is Secret" will hit U.S. theaters in August thanks to a newly signed distribution deal with Peace Arch Entertainment, Billboard has learned. Screenings will be held New York (Aug. 8), Chicago (Aug. 15) and Los Angeles (Aug. 23).

Co-writer/director Rodger Grossman spent 10 years trying to get the movie made, ultimately convincing the mother of late Germs frontman Darby Crash to give her approval.

Actor Shane West portrays Crash, who died of a heroin overdose at age 22 in 1980. The other actors who play the Germs' members were taught to play instruments by Pat Smear, the band's original guitarist and music producer on the film, and their recordings were used in the movie.

The surviving members of the band actually toured with West as lead singer in recent years.

Mwall, I cannot include X, The Blasters, or even The Minutemen in the LA hardcore scene. I go by the style of music, and midway thorugh their first, short release The Minutemen had outgrown that sound and approach. It's unfair of me, but when I talk about "hardcore" my focus is on that falling down a hill drum style, the shouting, and the chromatic chord progressions.

Sorry Slocum, i thought i *was* throwing down. Judging from your reaction, I guess I was!

I think the value of the Germs and bands like them lies in the live experience.

Putting on a song by them, and listening to it for songwriting or production or chops (maaaan) is the wrong way to go about trying to appreciate them.

I imagine that being a pissed off, inarticulate teen, being in a smelly room full of other people like that, and seeing a *really* pissed off, *really* inarticulate teen front a pissed off sounding, sloppy band like the Germs, would make me feel pretty damn good...or pretty damn pissed off, as the case may be.

Do I sit around and listen to Germs records and analyze them? Hell no. Their records are shitty. But do I think they were a significant band? Yes. Yes I do, but by different standards than the constricting ones usually applied.

They're much more culturally interesting to me than that nifty trick Steve Gadd pulls with his left hand in "50 ways to Leave Your Lover". But Gadd's trick is much more musically interesting.

Saturnismine wrote:

I think the value of the Germs and bands like them lies in the live experience...I imagine that being a pissed off, inarticulate teen, being in a smelly room full of other people like that, and seeing a *really* pissed off, *really* inarticulate teen front a pissed off sounding, sloppy band like the Germs, would make me feel pretty damn good...or pretty damn pissed off, as the case may be.

I played and watched sports for such an outlet. Why spoil the experience with bad music? (This was before the days of sporting events being accompanied by a nonstop soundtrack of Classic Rock.) :)

Mwall, I cannot include X, The Blasters, or even The Minutemen in the LA hardcore scene. I go by the style of music, and midway thorugh their first, short release The Minutemen had outgrown that sound and approach. It's unfair of me, but when I talk about "hardcore" my focus is on that falling down a hill drum style, the shouting, and the chromatic chord progressions.

But Mr. Mod, I'm afraid that your definition would be a classic example of the tail wagging the dog. Essentially you define the hardcore scene in the most limited way possible so that you can hate the music categorically; to you, anybody who was part of the hardcore scene but didn't have the most conventional version of the hardcore sound isn't hardcore.

For all your criticisms here of the narrowness of others, many people within that scene had a much more inclusive definition of what was possible than you do. And I think this is the place where you always lose me, because in your apparent criticism of the bigoted narrowness of the hardcore scene you come across as bigoted and narrow.

I'm not debating, of course, whether there were rote, narrow-minded hardcore bands and fans who deeply sucked; Jello B wrote "Nazi Punks Fuck Off" for a reason. But to characterize any scene and group by saying that they're all like the worst ones is a classic example of bigotry. Ah well. I do feel your pain here, having interacted with many narrow-minded arts scenes in my life, but I can't share your conclusions.

Excuse me for quoting myself here but since we're on the subject:


WHAT WE DO IS SECRET (2007, directed by Rodger Grossman, 92 minutes, U.S.)

What is no secret is that the old-fashioned Hollywood bio-pic is over-due filmfestogoheadercropped_1.jpgfor an overhaul; why hasn’t first-time director Roder Grossman received the news? Indistinguishable from about fifty percent of VH1’s Behind The Music scripts, this bio of quintessential L.A. punk Darby Crash and his briefly viable band The Germs hits most of the same notes as Judd Apatow’s Dewey Cox parody from last winter. The Germs‘ music still kicks ass and E.R.s Shane West (collecting the Festival’s Rising Star Award at Saturday’s screening) does his darndest to channel Crash’s stage presence yet one can’t escape the feeling that the film’s subject himself would have found his biopic as one more cynical example of showbiz falseness. As a movie, What We Do Is Secret is not very punk.

Mwall wrote, concerned:

to you, anybody who was part of the hardcore scene but didn't have the most conventional version of the hardcore sound isn't hardcore.

Right. Although not, technically, an "Olympic" form of music, like Rockabilly, I think classic hardcore has enough conventions applied to it that I'm justified in sticking to my rigid categorical hatred of it.

For all your criticisms here of the narrowness of others, many people within that scene had a much more inclusive definition of what was possible than you do. And I think this is the place where you always lose me, because in your apparent criticism of the bigoted narrowness of the hardcore scene you come across as bigoted and narrow.

Yes, and in my initial explanation of the psychic scars left by hardcore I did acknowledge one scar yet to set, the most glaring one that I might one day bear: the one that's left when that 4"x4" is dislodged from my ass.

As you might imagine, it's difficult for me to stand behind my feelings on this subject, but it would be dishonset of me to do otherwise. The way I see it, once a band that started out as part of the "hardcore scene" gets good enough, it becomes a punk rock or post-punk band. At the risk of making a horrible nature analogy, the frog is no longer a tadpole.

If nothing else, I hope that my candid expression of hardcore bigotry helps others.

great 48 says:

Plugz = other than "Hombre Secreto," crap

Zeroes = crap

Fear = crap


Listen to "Reel 10" by the plugs from the Repo Man soundtrack. It"s not punk, but it IS 80"s California Rock and Roll that will undeniably touch your soul.
I don't know the Zeros.
Fear are awesome. Don't even fuck around.
Nobody has mentioned The Vandals, T.S.O.L, or D.I., all awesome bands from early 80's L.A. (all featured in Penelope Spheris' sweet non doc movie. about L.A punks.)
I have always felt about punk the same way i feel about hip hop; that none of it really comes from L.A.
I Love L.A. but real punk comes from NYC, London, and Detroit.
If it it aint from NYC, then it aint even hip hop. It might be Rap, but if it does not originate in 1 of the 5 boroughs, it's simply sparkling wine.
That said, My favorite L.A. punk band is Christian Death, who had an awesome album called "Only Theater of Pain" (featuring D.I. guitarist/songwriter, Rick Agnew) before they went all Euro, etc...

duh, I forgot The Gun Club.
They're my real favorite/
Check out Miami.
Believe it or not, Chris Stein actually produced (other than Blondie) somebody"s best album.
Hot fuckin Fogerty/Creedence cover on this one.
run to the jungle!

I had the second album by the Plugz, Better Luck, and it was fine, not really punk, and the title song at least was really great. Plus they get bonus points because singer/guitarist Tito Larriva was on Pee Wee's Playhouse.

The Plugz were fine; they weren't really a hardcore band. One of the guys used to play in Impossible Years, an ancient Philly power pop band (early '80s. That same guy, Tony someone, I believe, went on to be an ace sideman with Bob Dylan, Matthew Sweet, and others.

The Gun Club were pretty cool too, I agree. Miami has some great stuff. They also were not hardcore, maybe just partied with hardcore guys, right? As some of you know, I'm a fan of Jeffrey Lee Pierce's Wildweed album.

How The Great 48 characterizes Black Flag as second-generation LA hardcore is beyond my comprehension. I don't doubt him, but how late to the party were they, like a year? Whatever. They were, artistically, head and shoulders above those other hardcore bands.

Well, to be clear, I said Black Flag were the first of the second-generation bands. I will stand up for the argument that BF were the first hardcore band, and without them, it would have been a much different (and to my way of thinking, largely inferior) scene where the humorless and didactic DC form -- always inferior to LA hardcore as MUSIC as opposed to an instrument of a subculture -- would have taken over much sooner than it eventually did.

"You know what? Saying people are narrow-minded makes you seem kind of narrow minded. Did you ever think of that?" OK. I'm kidding, but seriously, yes, I've thought of that. But here's the thing. I'm talking about my personal experiences, and not about cultural tru-isms. I was never a hardcore fan, I guess. But when something stood out, by way of humor, interest, or sound in general, I liked it. I walked into Back Street records in Indiana, PA in 1980, and saw the DK's first album on display. I said, "What's the Dead Kennedys?" and the guy says, "If you like the name, you'll love the music." And he was right. But it's like going out to a first Friday at the art galleries, and waiting for an incredible artist. What are the odds. I've spent a lot of frickin' time in clubs, and the percentage of bands that are never going to be heard from again is fairly high. And when we went to see the DK's at Omni on Walnut Street in Philly in 1980, the number of people *not* in black leather jackets with dyed black hair doing that odd 1980 "spasming in a cocoon" dance everyone used to do was very small. It just brought to mind many of those moments. And it did that because that particular performance by the Germs blew chunks. I simply thought, "I've seen those chunks before!" No dissing of movements or cities or scenes intended. I hereby call, entirely personally, on behalf of no one, Bullshit on the Germs. Just because a talentless turd allows legions of talentless turds to feel validated doesn't mean that people with an aversion to talentless turds should feel differently about them.

Well said, General!

Poorly said, General. GI is a first rate record. I wish you guys well in the personal pain wallow and whine while some of the rest of us try to examine with a little less prejudice the issue of what the band did or didn't achieve.

Point two: that you suggest that no one in that audience--none of whom you knew--had any talent begs all sorts of questions about your own perceptiveness that I'm not even going to ask. And when you claim that you do it out of your aversion to those who have no talent, suggesting either that you have talent or know it when you see it, then the bankruptcy of your "criticism" becomes apparent.

I call bullshit on the calling of bullshit.

Mwall, I've been open enough. Can you please list 3 ESSENTIAL songs from this Germs album that you're going on about that I should LISTEN to - for the music (lyrics too, of course) - AND can you please tip me off to a couple of MUSICAL highlights I should focus on in each song? Seriously, I'll give it my best. I'll drop the bigotry and I'll suspend my pokes. But remember, I need MUSIC, not all this spiritual jocko-homo business about how you had to BE there, how you had to be young and angry. I WAS there, and I was young and angry. I usually felt angrier after having to wait through a set of that shit. But I could be missing something on this GI album. I have to give it up to you for being maybe the only Townsperson to tout the music of this band. You've hinted at some of the nonsense about an LA zip code and otherwise having to have been there, but for the most part you've kept coming back to the music. We are talking about punk ROCK, right, not just punks, as if The Germs should be compared with the Bowery Boys or some other nonmusical act. Thanks.

Well certainly, Mr. All, I didn't mean to suggest I was wallowing in anything, least of all pain. It was only one video very small on my monitor, after all. And certainly I haven't "whined." What the band didn't achieve was this: they didn't achieve capturing my attention. Back in the day or now, beyond the hideous - I'll say it again - the *hid*eous perfromance on that video. GI may be the Trout Mask Replica of the LA punk scene. I know not from GI. But if you or anybody is standing up for that performance posted here, then I am forced, absurdly, to call Bullshit on the calling of bullshit on the calling of bullshit. Which is obviously ridiculous. So please don't stand up for that performance.

I didn't suggest either that no one in the audience had talent, or that I didn't know any of them. But it was Saturn's comment here that:

...I imagine that being a pissed off, inarticulate teen, being in a smelly room full of other people like that, and seeing a *really* pissed off, *really* inarticulate teen front a pissed off sounding, sloppy band like the Germs, would make me feel pretty damn good...

So, I did not claim that no one in any given audience had no talent, and I certainly didn't do whatever it was out of my aversion of those who have no talent. My aversion to those who have no talent is reserved for those displaying said lack on stage. The room full of talentless slobs was just a suggestion based on Mr. Ismine's comment.

Furthermore, here on RTH, every comment, unless citing something specific, has a parenthetical "To Me" before every sentence. To Me, the Germs are a mediocre band backing an utterly talent-free singer.

Also, I have talent, I know it when I see it, and my criticism has a very poor credit rating indeed. I am only sorry that my failure to appreciate the sound and the fury that was the germs is so dag-nab apparent.

However, I would suggest that your criticism is maxing out its card on digging in like a pit bull on the shank of a Germs-dissing post. Ease-up, there son, and hold the reins until somebody starts talking about *music* on this blog! (Kidding, I'm kidding...)

Mwall, I'm worried about you going all Cali on us! No seriously, I too would like to hear what's good about GI. I no longer have this album, but I gave t a shot when I was predisposed to like it and failed to. "First rate" you say? I'm willing to be shown what I missed, but first rate? As something more than an embodiment of fucked-upness? Really? I'm all ears.

As one who believed enough in the Plan to sign up, I'm with the anti-Germ contingent. I cannot deny that part of my anti "pure hardcore" has to do with jealousy that such bad and unoriginal musicians could meet with even a modicum of success and therefore were drawing resources away from the more traditional new wavey/original pop punk bands to which I claimed allegiance. To be "allowed" on stage, I always thought there was a fairly low bar of musicianship that you had to pass. Many hardcore bands failed to pass that bar. The Germs perhaps passed that very low bar, but certainly not enough to justify their level of success.

And Dr John, trust me, the Plan never including aspirations of the brass ring, it was a very modest quest for an aluminum ring at best. Those damn skinheads! Where's the tequila?

Okay, guys, I'm going to answer the call here, but first I'm going to say something about the "Calling Bullshit" thread. If you're gonna call bullshit, it's up to you to explain why the band's music sucks rather than asking others to defend it, and you can't convincingly say it sucks on the basis of one video performance which, no, I'm not defending. I have nothing to say about the quality or consistency of The Germs as a live act, although I would hardly be surprised if they were not often very good or were too caught up in their own foolishness to give a shit about performing. I'm simply saying that GI is an excellent record, although not as good as the best British punk records.

Mod, I think most of the songs on GI deserve a listen; there are a couple that are just marking time but the others have, along with the trademark break neck speed, catchy riffs, surprising changes, and a going for broke rhythm section. They also do all they need to do in a very short time span. There's also a lot of variation from song to song, so those changes are part of what you need to hear. Darby Crash's vocals are the most controversial element of the band, with most of the lyrics slurred beyond recognition but punctuated by instants of lyrical clarity. But I would argue that it's the sound of Darby's vocals that are essential. There's a genuine chaotic menace that like certain Stones lyrics come from the fact that they teeter on the edge of comprehensibility. It's funny that the lyrics sheet shows that he usually is saying something quite interesting, but since you can only occasionally hear it, that's pretty much beside the point.

So, titles:

The first side of the record is the strongest; I'd argue for all of the songs except "American Leather," with the highlights being "What We Do Is Secret" for its compactness "Communist Eyes" for the riff and that weird nasal chorus, "Richie Dagger's Crime" for its demented pop quality, and then "Lexicon Devil" through "We Must Bleed" simply for balls out rocking power and a totally coherent if desperate world view.

Side two is weaker: the first three songs are excellent, and by the time you've gotten through them, I think the album has all the elements that will be expanded on Husker Du's "Zen Arcade," another excellent punk record that I know you don't like, but hey, I'm trying. The 9:30 closing song, "Shut Down," is one I have mixed feelings about; I kind of like the slow grinding groove a la The Stooges, but it's not at that level and Darby's vocals don't quite carry it through despite some fascinating moments, but on the whole the tune is too sloopy and Crash does too much shrieking. The band isn't really ready to stretch out at this length and it shows.

So that's what I think. If I accept Mod's narrow view of the music that came out of the California "hardcore scene" but was still "hardcore" in terms of sticking to a strict formula, then there are three classic west coast hardcore records: GI, Damaged, and of course the Dead Kennedy's first record. But that Fresh Fruit and GI are arguably more punk than hardcore shows exactly how narrow the Mod's definition is here of what the music of this context was all about.

OK since I've been summoned, I'll weigh in here. First off, I haven't been able to participate regularly here over the last weeks because of work and what not. Otherwise, I would've been all over this sooner. OK now that that's out of the way, here it goes.

I bought GI on vinyl back when I was an angry, sullen teenager (at the age of 19), but even then I thought that it was a good, but not a great album. "Lexicon Devil" (the song in the first YouTube clip) is clearly one of their best songs and I have to mention "Richie Dagger's Crime" as well. If you don't like those two songs, you probably won't like the rest of that album or The Germs in general. Over the course of the years, though, I've come to realize not only how influential that record was on the subsequent hardcore scene (side note: Middle Class, not Black Flag, were in reality the first hardcore band; check out the Out of Vogue 7" if you don't believe me), but furthermore that the whole thing rocks like an artillery tank largely due to the slightly more cleaned-up sound they got from Joan Jett producing it. Seriously, it blows their earlier, sloppier and more shambolic recordings (most of which I admittedly like) out of the water. But then again, The Germs are clearly not for everyone (then again, what is, right?). Someone I know once described them, along with other bands like The Nihilistics (an early '80s hardcore band from Long Island) and Septic Death (the artist Pushead's old Idaho hardcore band), as "acquired taste music" and frankly, I couldn't agree more, especially given some of the negative reactions above. I just don't understand the hate, though. I understand that it won't be everyone's cup of tea, but just move on instead of fixating on the dumb-ass hardcore types that the Germs really had nothing in common with. The Great one correctly pointed out that they were part of the original Masque scene in LA, not the later hardcore scene, and also TSOL, DI and others were indeed part of the later hardcore scene, which is why they weren't mentioned before. I have to take serious issue with the Great One's dissing of The Weirdos, though. "Life of Crime"? "Solitary Confinement"? "We Got the Neutron Bomb"? I find it difficult to imagine that anyone who likes The Avengers (the greatest Cali punk band ever) or The Dils (who were from LA; the confusion is because later Rank and File would be based in SF, I think; I know that Alejandro Escovedo, who was a member of the SF-based band The Nuns, later joined R&F) wouldn't like these songs. And yeah, The Alleycats were pretty good, too. A band that hasn't been mentioned from that Masque scene is Black Randy & The Metro Squad. It's not really punk, more of a hyper-speed funk/punk cross, but it's quite enjoyable (I wouldn't call it great, though). Incidentally, I just got the photo book that Brendan Mullen put out of all the old Masque photos. Back to the Germs for a second, too. Me and Anne saw What We Do is Secret at the Philly Film Festival last month and both of us were underwhelmed (though I liked it more and though Shane West did a good job; the reunion show at the Troc a few years back was awful, though).

Oh and props to whoever mentioned The Gun Club. Miami is my favorite album of theirs, too! And no, they were never hardcore. I associate them more with '80s X, The Blasters, Rank and File, The Beat Farmers and bands of that sort in that they combined punk with roots music.

As for Black Flag, they were certainly one of the greatest (if not the greatest) band out of that whole scene, but yeah they came in towards the end of the Masque period but were really part of the beginning of the mainly suburban hardcore scene and what not.

Oh and you really thought "Lexicon Devil" was a Ramones song? Yes the Ramones were a primary influence on just about all LA punk (along with The Damned), but Darby always sounded like he was swallowing razor blades, thus paving the way for that hardcore vocal style. I do think, however, that the bands that followed the Germs template the closest were Portland's Poison Idea and an early '90s band from Florida called Chickenhead. Husker Du, though I love them, were onto something totally different, even in their earliest days, though I see why you (mwall) made that comparison.

Berlyant, good to have you back - and I'm sure Mwall appreciates your support. I will revisit these songs you suggest after first cleansing my ears with peroxide. I want to be a open to hearing them in a new light as possible. I'll report back in the next couple of days!

does anyone know who the bands are in the rock fight at the end of Cheech and Chong"s Up in Smoke?
There are 2 bands that play before CnC go on. You only hear a few bars of each of them, but they sound awesome!
LA Punk!!!

What about GG Allin and the Murder junkies? They suck as much as the Germs right?

Unrelated:
check this shit out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcmLBjsXcII

That's beautiful, Kilroy. Where'd you find that? We may have to run that bad boy on The Main Stage.

What about GG Allin and the Murder junkies? They suck as much as the Germs right?

Oh, far, far worse. GG Allin and the Murder Junkies are quite possibly the only musical act I can think of that it would be impossible for me to say anything even remotely complimentary about. There was simply no need for that band to exist, and the tragedy is only that Allin didn't kill himself sooner than he did. It wasn't even good performance art.

Anyone know the Tom Scharpling/Johnny Wurster bit with Philly Boy Roy recounting his experience booking "GG and them Murder Junkies" at Geno's Steaks?

does anyone know who the bands are in the rock fight at the end of Cheech and Chong"s Up in Smoke?
There are 2 bands that play before CnC go on. You only hear a few bars of each of them, but they sound awesome!
LA Punk!!!

As mentioned before by the Great one, I think, The Dils were one of the bands in that club scene in Up in Smoke. I can't remember what songs they do, though, since I haven't seen that movie in so long. OK I just looked it up and they do "You're Not Blank".

Also, I forgot to mention earlier that the Great one mistakenly identified the demo version of "Counting" as a Germs song. It's actually an early Motels track. The Germs track in question is "Forming", the A-side of their first single. I don't know if this was just a typo on his part (understandable since both songs are on the Rhino D.I.Y. comp that's the LA punk one) or if he really doesn't like any Germs songs at all.

Mr. Mod, if you're going to do the research, could you post a few tracks? I appreciate mwall's analysis, but I'm unlikely to buy the record again to test his hypotheses.

Steve, I'd be glad to mail you a burned copy of the anthology.

I'll post the tracks, certainly. I think I'll be able to write off their purchase, right?

Yesterday I made mention of the Philly Boy Roy bit regarding GG Allin. I was going to post it here, but then I saw that Philebrity already ran the entire thing, so instead I'm providing this link: Philly Boy Roy calls Tom Scharpling to discuss Laser Allin and the time he booked GG and them Murder Junkies to play Geno's Steaks.

Ha! I listened to Philly Boy Roy til the end and was quite surprised...

Did he ever book shows for your band, Mrclean?

it came up when i did a youtube search for "cheech and chong rockfight"

I love the Motels.

OK I just listened to some Germs selections from one of the Live at the Masque comps that came out in the mid '90s and I have a few observations to make that I don't think have been made thus far.

1) They were a terrible, terrible live band. Every other band on that comp, including The Weirdos, The Bags and The Skulls, were much better though The Weirdos are far better than any of the others on that particular volume. So I don't know if the relative polish of the studio or Joan Jett's production on GI made them better, but it's like night and day. I find the live material I've heard by them to be nearly unlistenable.

2) Part of the reason they have such high stature in the punk scene today, despite their obvious deficiencies, is because of Darby's lyrics. His lyrics were closer to TS Eliot than to Johnny Rotten and are thus unique in American punk rock. Plus, the fact that he was gay and closeted is at least in part what fueled his self-destructive behavior. That part, while sad, shouldn't matter as far as their legacy, but as you all know his OD all but ensured that they would be legends.

Shawnkilroy:
Several scenes are sampled by the ska/punk band Voodoo Glow Skulls in their songs. The scene where the officers give away their undercover position by yelling "shoot the moon" is used as the opening sequence of the 1995 album Firme. In the song Insubordination the scene where Pedro mockingly replies to an inquiry of "Do you know who this is?" with "No, who is 'This is'?". The album Who Is, This Is? is derived from this scene. The introduction of the song Country Phuck is where Pedro talks about punk music.
Anthony's name is mentioned only once in the film. While his father yells at him for not having a job, his mother says his name. Anthony's parents, Arnold and Tempest, are played by Strother Martin and Edie Adams, and were encouraged to ad-lib their lines, leading to Mr. Stoner's classic line, "You get a goddamn job before sundown, or we're shipping you off to military school, with that goddamn Finkelstein-shit kid! Son of a bitch!" (This line opened up Side 1 of the Up In Smoke soundtrack album)
The three punk rock groups who appear during sequences shot at the Roxy were Berlin Brats (performing "Psychotic"), The Dils (performing "You're Not Blank (So Baby We're Through)") and The Whores.
There is a wiki somewhere on it.
"Cheech and Chong Up In Smoke Wiki.
Sorry so late.

~Wemust