The Raspberries had a definite schmaltzy side that Cheap Trick was mercilessly free of until much later in their career. That, alone, makes Cheap Trick the cooler band. Also, while Cheap Trick's lyrics went in a lot of directions, not all of them all that thoughtful, the smarmy horniness of the Raspberries wears thin after a while. To mention the above-listed song, "He's A Whore" is infinitely more creative in this realm than anything the Raspberries did. (So is the bit about the "soldier's ... falling off," for that matter.)

I like both bands more than you do, obviously, but when I *don't* like them, it's for different reasons. With the Raspberries it's for an integral part of what they are. With Cheap Trick it's because of inconsistent songwriting or lyrics that don't do it for me. But the best Cheap Trick lyrics are infinitely more evocative than anything in the traditional boy/girl powerpop realm (the main reason so much power pop leaves me cold.) I think the strongest Raspberries' lyric is...um, "I don't know what I want but I want it now."

The Raspberries, by the way, had GREAT hooks. It doesn't get much better than "Tonight" or "Ecstacy" for pure sound. But no matter what they did, they always sounded unoriginal to me. That was part of the charm, and it was what drove their one truly great album (STARTING OVER was virtually, song by song, something of a battle of the bands type role call of classic rock artists), but it also meant that something was just a tiny bit lacking. Even Badfinger, who suffered moreso from lack of identity, sounded genuine to me, while the Raspberries sounded like they were always trying too hard to maximize the catchiness factor by puting every chorus in the right place, making every harmony just a tiny bit too sweet, you know? Cheap Trick always sounded like a rock band to me, whereas even a their loudest, the Raspberries always sounded like their heart was just a bit somewhere else.

Pudman13 wrote:

The Raspberries had a definite schmaltzy side that Cheap Trick was mercilessly free of until much later in their career. That, alone, makes Cheap Trick the cooler band.

I'm only picking out this quote, for starters, to clarify that "coolness" is in no way under consideration. I think the "coolness" that people get from Cheap Trick goes a long way to separating them from the pack. On the other hand, every bit of schtick that Rick Nielsen does strikes me as less cool than anything The Raspberries did collectively, so who's to say there's a real difference there?

The other stuff you point out is valid, but is that all that separates the bands' critical standing? I know this will be as difficult an exercise for you, Cheap Trick fans, as it is for me. As we go along, perhaps it will be helpful to make the case that Cheap Trick has a SECOND GREAT SONG, which would be one significant, undeniable difference from The Raspberries.

Seriously, pudman13, nice start!

I can't add much to Pudman's assessment, and I'm not a huge fan of either, but I like a good dozen or so Cheap Trick songs a lot. The Raspberries lyrics I've heard are awful, and make Carmen's voice seem even more smarmy. It's as though someone was clinical enough to take all personal content out to make the denominator as low as possible. Just listening to the examples here, every rhyme is hackneyed. I'm suprised you would respond better to this Mod, as you have always opposed those singers who whine about sex like it never happens to them. I never really liked Go All The Way, I Wanna Be With You is catchy enough to overwhelm it's limitations.

I think Cheap Trick can do more things, they've got those chart numbers, but they often do songs like Stiff Competition or even a dumber song like Hot Love which are built on a harder rock platform and push the tempo. And there's more space in a few of the Cheap Trick songs I know, I suspect Carlos's drumming gives them a groove that sets them apart from the what the Raspberries can do. Plus, while I can forget the goofy image of Rick Nielsen when I hear Cheap Trick songs, I can not strike the bathetic imagery of Eric Carmen sopranically crooning rightfully all by himself. A bronx cheer for the Raspberries' blue balls, and a laugh as Cheap Trick magically makes those little metal hoops join together.

mockcarr wrote:

I'm suprised you would respond better to this Mod, as you have always opposed those singers who whine about sex like it never happens to them.

To be clear, I DON'T like The Raspberries BETTER than Cheap Trick. I like them equally - and I wish I could say I honestly liked "the Trick" (can I call them that?) better. That's why I've called you guys for help. I know it's a lot easier to go out in public and say, "I like Cheap Trick a lot better than The Raspberries!" than to say the converse, or even to say what I'm saying, that I like them equally (and find them severely lacking in separate but equal areas). However, until instructed otherwise, I don't see how I can claim that Cheap Trick is better without simply putting up a "cool" front. And I'm NOT saying that's what most of you lot are doing...

So, I don't know much about the Raspberries apart from "Go All the Way." So I'm watching these YouTube clips and... these guys just do not compare to Cheap Trick in any way. This "Let's Pretend" song is one of the wussiest things I've ever heard, and I like some wussy music. These guys were, at best, garage rockers with enough stage presence to get them through an episode of Don Kirchner's Rock Concert.

Whereas Cheap Trick had a big sound that was made for arenas. On top of that, they alchemized a whole bunch of '50s-'70s rock styles in their prime. They had a sense of humor (while still making room for some fairly aching songs, like "Oh Candy"), as opposed to the painfully earnest Eric Carmen. Their songs have guitar firepower. I can't believe you prefer the studio, "Paulie picks his nose" version of "I Want You to Want Me."

I mean, you posted "ELO Kiddies" and "He's a Whore" here, which, even if you don't like them, you have to admit they deliver some integral rock action and genuine strangeness. These Raspberries songs, in contrast, are energetic pastiches, nothing more, nothing less.

If you don't like these songs, there's not much I can do but shake my head. You seem to imply that people who would say otherwise do not in fact really like their songs.

Also, the fact that Cheap Trick have kept touring all these years is a key reason why they're more well-regarded and have more fans.

I think the Trick was the last band to attempt to get out of or at least redefine the power-pop straight-jacket by injecting a heavy dose of sarcasm and contempt into their songs. Is there any power-pop song as angry as "Surrender"?

I can see where you're going with making the comparison with the Raspberries, but I'm just not buying it. It seems to me you're saying that just as every power-pop band wanted to be the Beatles, then every power-pop band sounds the same trying to sound like the Beatles. The Raspberries remind me of the Beatles before they hung out with Dylan, the Trick after.

Not even a contest for me. I consider The Raspberries a one-hit-wonder (and not even a big hit)

Cheap Trick Have a double disc of good-to-great songs (and a single disc of GREAT songs) and that's just their singles.

Tonight It's You
Voices
Dream Police
I Want You To Want Me
Surrender
Hello There
Clock Strikes Ten
Auf Wiedersehen
She's Tight
If You Want My Love
Weight Of The World
Mr Taxman Mr Heath
He's a Whore
I Can't Take It
Big Eyes
Oh Candy
Never Had A Lot To Lose

add the cover songs: Day Tripper, Ain't That A Shame, Don't Be Cruel, California Man, Magical Mystery Tour, Southern Girls

then The Flame...kinda sucks, but even the bands admits that

Plus their 1997 Self Titled record is very good start-to-finish

Forgive me if I said this before: Cheap Trick got screwed by labels, A&R, Producers, etc who tried to make them fit the mold of other bands (hard rock, top 40, ballads, new wave)It kept them from being HUGE and makes some of their music sound very dated.

I've seen them headline a huge festival and I've seen them play the chili cook-off on a tiny stage with a blue tarp over it, these guys have had their ups and downs and deserve more.

I like both bands, but I don't love either one of them. I'm good with In Color for Cheap Trick and I don't need anymore. I'm still unhappy that Raspberries albums aren't dirt cheap and available at the drug store. They should be, but they seem to have an underground coolness that I can appreciate, but they were huge here and they weren't underground at all.

I always thought Cheap Trick made it big in spite of their goofiness. I never thought they were even a little cool.

What Oats said. To make things more personal: I try hard to avoid writing Raspberries songs, though that "formula" comes naturally to me. Though I wish I could write Cheap Trick songs instead, I know I lack the testosterone-fueled, arena-sized, effortlessly brontosaurian, chutzpah-driven power chord-ism that seems to be required. Sigh.

Jungleland2, I don't think you can consider The Raspberries a one hit wonder, nor can you call their biggest hit, which went to number 5, "not a big hit anyway." They managed to get four into the Billboard top 40, so they aren't one hit wonders. That's one place where objectivity or opinion doesn't count. It also has no bearing on how "good" a piece of music is, but just because you weren't interested doesn't mean it wasn't a big hit.

That's a Hobson's choice to me. I do think The Trick is better than The Berries. The Berries have the great intro into "Go All The Way" and then the rest of their output is Wuss.

I think the reason Mr Mod doesn't get into the midwest pop scene is simple. Too white for him. No sense of soul.

This comparison seems pretty arbitrary, as I really can't find enough similarities between the two bands.

To me, The Raspberries always leaned more to schmaltzy end of the 'rockometer', mainly due to their singer, who seemed to have two settings; saccharine croon or rock bellow (which mainly came out post-verse or chorus, in an exclamatory "WOAH, MA-MA-MA-YEAH!"-type of thing, & then disappeared until the next break). Zander, on the other hand has a much more versatile instrument, & can change up styles for songs at a time, or within a single song, but never falls into that sugary pit that Carmen seems so at home in, & which the band are only saved from by an occasional blast of Bryson's "Townshendian" riffage.

Cheap Trick also lean way more torward the rock & roll end of the scale in general, which is a flip flop of The Raspberries' M.O. Also, C.T. gets points from me for being just plain weirder (& I'm not talking about the visual personas, though I have NO problem with theirs) & dark-humored in their lyrics. That just goes to personal taste, but it does set them apart from The Raspberries, who mainly wrote standard boy-girl love songs, which, by the way, I probably would have enjoyed more if they weren't sung by a prat like Carmen.

In general, I find the comparison as specious as The T. Rex/White Stripes one Mr. Mod came up with on an earlier thread. I don't see enough evidence of similarities in the two bands for this to be a valid comparison. "Auf Wiedersehen"!

Andy, Soul? Is Mr. Mod THAT big a soul fan? That's a serious question, to either one of you, as I haven't seen that much mention of it in postings or what I remember from "back in the day". If so, why don't we see more talk of it in RTH? Most of what's been discussed in the, admittedly, short time I've been logging in, has had to do with decidedly white rock groups & theme threads, with the occasional foray into Jazz. But R&B and Soul? Not that I've seen. Don't anybody get their pantaloons in a twist, I'm just asking, is all.

Dr. John wrote:

The Raspberries remind me of the Beatles before they hung out with Dylan, the Trick after.

First of all, thanks for taking a level-headed view of what I'm trying to get at. I can see how folks would think it's a bad comparison. I like what you say here, Dr., but for me, I'd say the Trick sound more like The Beatles after they split and went solo - sometimes coming up with something as good as a strong Wings tune and sometimes coming up with an Elephant's Memory-era Lennon tune. The spirit of what you said, however, makes a lot of sense.

Some more catch up on these fine, fine responses, which are giving some support to the common belief that Cheap Trick IS a little more than The Raspberries with a highly evolved schtick...

2K wrote:

I always thought Cheap Trick made it big in spite of their goofiness. I never thought they were even a little cool.

I'm glad you brought this up. I was talking to a Townsman offlist who said the same thing, and I remembered that in OUR time (ie, 40-48 demographic), Cheap Trick was NOT cool. What puzzled me was how they suddenly got cool in the early '90s. I started thinking I'd missed more than a handful of nice rocking songs and one all-time killer (ie, "Surrender"), but whenever I pulled out my old Cheap Trick albums, they had the same effect on me. After a few songs I'd get restless and feel there was no core that I could love despite not minding all the trimmings they had to offer - as I feel with The Raspberries. So the "cool" thing is really addressing a much later period.

Hrrundi, sometimes we've gotta write what we know. Sometimes we've gotta hire two pretty boys to even things out:) I bet you can find it in you to write some of those Cheap Trick-style tunes. I agree with you all that their "degree of difficulty" is what sets them apart. I was afraid that was all that it was, but maybe that's that best I'll get out of this. We'll see.

Andyr wrote:

I think the reason Mr Mod doesn't get into the midwest pop scene is simple. Too white for him. No sense of soul.

Yes, the next time a white, midwestern rocker (west of Cleveland that is, which has a sense of soul) plays behind the beat or hesitates a bit on bass line may be the first time.

Bobbybittman wrote:

Also, C.T. gets points from me for being just plain weirder (& I'm not talking about the visual personas, though I have NO problem with theirs) & dark-humored in their lyrics.

OK, this continues to be the main, distinguishing feature of Cheap Trick from 98% of power pop bands, and more power to them. As I said in my intro, for me, I'm not sure their "weirdness" helped them that often - or in my mind helped me to feel their songs were any better than they usually sound to me - but I'll grant you that they had a more "artistic" (or was it half-baked?) approach than The Raspberries.

As for my taste in '60s music made by African Americans, Bobbyb, it runs deep. It comes up now and then, but personally I find it a very frustrating topic. Sometimes it degenerates into "Who was into soul music first?" (I've been listening to various forms of "black" music since early childhood, so I'm sometimes the one bringing the argument to that unsatisfying and holier-than-thou place.)

Other times it degenerates into "My tastes in soul music are 'blacker' than yours!" In these frustrating discussions I'm in the minority of Townspeople who are told that we're not as cool as we think we are because we've stated that we love Motown (ie, "Uncle Tom" music in some Townspeople's eyes) as much as or more than Stax/Volt.

After the Beatles and Stones, Motown as a whole is probably the third-deepest musical influence in my life, long before I discovered the punk rock scene in high school. I also knew a good deal of Memphis soul growing up, but I've always liked Motown best, so take my "soul cred" with a grain of buckwheat.

I don't have time to get into it right now but I'm on Team Raspberry.

I like Cheap Trick a lot and Surrender is the best song by either band but the Berries have a lot better songs than Go All The Way. And Overnight sensation is not one of them.

I'll try to flesh out my defense of the Raspberries, apparently single handedly, tomorrow.

Go for it - when you've got the time - cdm!

To paraphrase Robbie Robertson following Muddy Waters' performance in The Last Waltz, "Ain't that a Townsman?"

Mr.Mod, I remember Cheap Trick suddenly becoming "cool" after Budokan came out. I never really heard them played much until then, not even "Surrender". Am I imagining this, or did that song (the studio version) become a bigger hit in the US AFTER the live album? Were "In Color" & the live one released closely together in this country? That's my memory of it, I could be wrong.


As far as them becoming "cool" in the nineties, I thought the tour they did where they played the 1st four albums over consecutive nights at mid-sized venues had a lot to do with people getting into them again.

Re; the Soul Music stuff. OK, cool. I like a lot of Motown myself. The stuff that really floats my boat, though, is usually earlier R&B, and small regional label stuff from later on. I never thought of it as a case of which is "blacker", but some stuff could definitely be called "rawer". That's the stuff I dig the most. That's not meant to take ANYTHING away from the greatness of a lot of what Motown out out, just personal preference (& sometimes, just the mood I'm in). The main reason I asked is, for quite awhile now I find myself listening MUCH more to that stuff than to Cheap Trick, The Beatles, The White Stripes, or any other "rock & roll" band from the past four decades. I like reading the threads about late sixties & seventies Jazz stuff because it's what's least familiar to me (my Jazz knowledge is mainly early N.O. stuff through Be-Bop), & I can learn something from it.

Going back to that Albini thing, I really like how Cheap Trick appropriated the verse melody of the Beatles "Cry Baby Cry" in the B section of "I Want You to Want Me" and then, we get to hear them play Lennon's reappropriation in "I'm Losing You". One thing that I do like about Cheap Trick is that somehow their Beatles appropriations seem very atypical; they seem to grab different elements anfd use them in different ways than other Power Pop appropriators.

>As we go along, perhaps it will be >helpful to make the case that Cheap >Trick has a SECOND GREAT SONG, which >would be one significant, undeniable >difference from The Raspberries.

It's a difference, but it doesn't make them a better band. The ability to produce a few great singles is not as significant as the ability to produce a solid body of work.

Besides, "Go Al The Way" isn't even the Raspberries' best song. "Overnight Sensation" and "Tonight" are both better, IMO, though "Surrender" blows away all of them.

it's pretty simple for me: neither band has impressive bodies of work, but the songs of theirs that i like are songs i REALLY REALLY like.

I don't like one over the other, however, and i don't even put them in the same category. so though i understand why they're being compared here, i don't have much to say about the two of them together.

pudman, for my tastes, you couldn't be more wrong about 'go all the way'. i think it IS their best song. perhaps i like "let's pretend" better, but not by much. but these are just opinions, anyway.

I think I'm on team Raspberries with cdm. Surrender is okay, but I really only like In Color and I thought Budokan sucked all the nuances on the studio record that I was attracted to and crushed them under simple power chords and bad 70's live album production techniques. The Raspberries may not have written any lyrics as weird as Surrender, but I bet they had an influence on Cheap Trick and their sound. Cheap Trick became another REO Speedwagon. At least Eric Carmen had to quit the Raspberries to become a real douche.

It's good to see some balanced points of view on this difficult subject. I bet you won't find this on other rock music discussion blogs. The support for Cheap Trick being no better than The Raspberries is surprising nevertheless.

It's also good to see one other Townsman stand up for "Let's Pretend." I'm with you, Sat. That's The Raspberries' second-best song. I'm sure the tenderness of the song and Eric Carmen's performance scares some off, but stick that on any of those post-Pet Sounds Beach Boys albums and you've got a major winner!

The Raspberries have always meant more to me than the Cheap Trick. I think part of people's lack of love for Eric, Wally and the Boys is that their stuff was still produced to sound good on AM radio, Cheap Trick was made for FM. FM rock radio never played the Raspberries after the mid-seventies.

Can I ask the members of Team Raspberries if guitar firepower counts for anything? Dbuskirk, I fully understand if this is not a high consideration for you, but 2000 Man, I'm a little surprised about you!

Oats, "guitar firepower" in the case of Cheap Trick is a lot of unnecessary showmanship, if you ask me. First of all, I'm not a big fan of the sound of an 8-neck Hamer guitar through a stack of Marshalls. Then, it seems every pyrotechnic Nielsen uses involves a "diddley-diddley-diddley" hammer-on follwed by the scraping of his pick down the strings. That trick was pretty cool when Townshend did it in "Won't Get Fooled Again" and "Long Live Rock," but I don't need to hear it over and over. This is one of the reasons the live version of "I Want You to Want Me" gets on my nerves. Those "Look at me, Ma!" moves are not necessary.

The Cheap Trick's guitar firepower reminds me of a Hummer with a musical car horn. I like some of The Cheap Trick's songs but I've never thought much of Neilsen as a guitar god. I think it is a guitar tone thing. Give me Wayne Kramer any day.

I agree with the poor grade on Nielsen's tone.

Fair enough, but guitar firepower is about more than tone and chops. It's a more about a cumulative effect and a general atmosphere. Also, I was referring to their studio output, where the vaudevillian Hamer shenanigans are largely kept to a minimum. But, again, fair enough: this is a band that has fetishized their live show to a certain degree.

So the equation might be:

Raspberries = top tier power popsters

The Cheap Trick = cartoon rockers with bad guitar tone who represent another example of Lennon's questionable taste during his late solo career

If I was in the mood to hear The Cheap Trick I'd probably just as soon throw on some Van Halen...

Is top-tier power-pop sort of like when Stephen Colbert describes his TV persona as a "high-status idiot."?

I admit I'm completely shocked that the Raspberries seem to be 'winning.' I bought a best-of by them way back during the power-pop era, and I was and remain unmoved. They just seem fake. The best tracks certainly succeeded, but they did not make me feel good. I know that great music has been created with not much more than the aim of striking it rich, but these records just seemed too calculated, and everything was too pretty. The power in their power pop seemed like window dressing to put the prettiness over the top.

It might seem strange to think of a band like Cheap Trick with their visual shtick of being more authentic, but in a way they are. Those first four albums are a pretty impressive body of work in my book, and there have been scattered fine tracks in the years since. I saw them play maybe ten years ago, and they were totally impressive live. They are who we thought they were!

And btw I like In Color just as it was originally released. It's certainly their best, most consistent album. (That's much easier to do at a 31 minute running length.) But I liked the Albini sessions too. I'd like to hear completed mixes to judge them adequately, but the contrast with the slick original tracks is very instructive. It's great that we get to hear both versions.

And I don't think Nielsen is a guitar god. Did anyone claim that? What I like is the way he integrated that hard rock guitar into tuneful pop songs. And the off the wall lyrics are a big plus, and everything fits together into a weird but satisfying whole.

I agree with most of Team Raspberries' case so far, especially with db's point about the production being an AM versus FM issue.

As I mentioned above, I like Cheap Trick. And Surrender is the best song by either band. But after Surrender and I Want You to Want Me, Cheap Trick has maybe 4-5 other songs that are pretty good and then things start to head south quickly.

The Raspberries only put out four albums, which are now available in two-fers.

Of those 39 songs, about half of the songs are treacley piano ballads, a handful are decent, somewhat disposable rockers but the remaining 12 or 13 are sublime pop-rock gems. I’ve never understood the appeal of Overnight Sensation, however. It always seemed a bit show-tuney to me.

First: some of the strengths:
Dave Smalley. Originally the rhythm guitarist, bass for the third album. His songs are some of my favorites by them. He has some real subtly magnificent mid tempo stuff like Seemed So Easy and Should I Wait, and a great rocker in Hard to Get Over The Heartbreak

Wally the lead guitarist comes up with really cool parts. Check out his guitar on Come Around and See Me. At first that song seemed like a throw-away little ditty but the guitar bits are fantastic. Caveat: His guitar on that song is acoustic and I think it only has one neck.

Hooks/melodies/harmonies/nuanced production and plenty of it. I’ll take the following song list over that jungleland’s Cheap Trick list any day:

I Wanna Be With You.
Hard to Get Over The Heartbreak
Tonight
Go All The Way
Should I Wait
Seemed So Easy
Last Dance
Ecstasy
Come Around and See Me
Goin’ Nowhere Tonight
Making it Easy
Play On

Now the weaknesses
Eric Carmen seems to be one of those guys who has a natural talent but is in bad need of an editor.

The lyrics. If you need to have compelling poetic lyrics in all of your music, the Raspberries are not for you. As befitting a pop band in the early 70s, their songs are mainly about rocking and trying to get laid. Personally, I don’t have a problem with the lyrics. They’re not Dylan but they don’t need to be for this kind of music.

The aforementioned piano ballads. The less said about them the better.

Caveat: His guitar on that song is acoustic and I think it only has one neck.

A well-played ZING, sir!

I think Team Raspberries is fudging a bit. I'll admit that there are many bands that have better guitar tone and more complex arrangements than the Trick.

But, to call the Raspberries "top-tier"? As if there are few/no bands that were able to write pretty songs without being saccharine and surrendering to the pitfalls of AM radio production?

I think there are plenty of bands that are free of these flaws: Left Banke for instance.

Left Banke, love 'em or hate 'em, had a SERIOUS power outtage, Dr. John. I thought you were going to write Badfinger or Big Star.

Whether The Raspberries were a top-tier power pop band or not (and like someone said, that could be construed as damming with feint praise), they were at the forefront of the power pop movement.

Of course, I'm on team Cheap Trick, and like Bobby B I think the comparison between the two bands makes little or no sense.

Re the coolness issue and Cheap Trick, I think it's their lack of coolness that makes the music so refreshing. Ironic and down to earth, it pokes a lot of holes both in pop cliches and hard rock sex and drugs macho cliches. The character sketches are great too, lampooning the boredom and desperation of midwestern suburbs.

I know there are people on this list who like the Raspberries, for whatever painful reason, but a better comparison would be between them and ELO, with the nod going to ELO for better melodies constructed around a shining emptiness.

Trick's first album is their best, I think. Rougher, edgier songs with consistent hooks and sly humor. Is there a better power and glory of rock song than "Taxman (Mr. Heath"? Not very many.

70s production values harm records two and three, one of the reasons I like the remix, since it highlights the rough edges rather than downplaying them. The second record is straightforward hard pop with a bit more bite than is usual. The third record, if not quite as consistent as the first, is still remarkable not only for its incredible high points but also for some more complex arrangements that still remain hard driving.

Budokan is one of the most consistently playable live rock albums ever made.

Cheap Trick splits the difference on the problems of the 70s in intriguing ways. Some power pop, some hard rock, some "punkish urgency," with a goofy anti-cool because cool, you know, is bullshit.

I think the band suffers from a lot of hate-the-70s snobbery that both post punks and 60s dinosaurs love to indulge in. But the Trick may be the best uncool band in the history of rock; at least, I'm not coming up with any other immediate contenders.

Cheap Trick's uncoolness always comes across as tongue-in-cheek or ironic. As much as I love the Raspberries, they are just plain uncool.

And what's wrong with shining emptiness, if that's what suits the song? There are plenty of classic pop/rock songs throughout the years that lack a big statement. Good Lovin' by the Rascals, for instance (probably my favorite song of all time).

mwall, you got it. There's quite a stetch of the imagination to compare the Raspberries with Cheap Trick, not to mention Big Star or Badfinger.

Rather a much more apt comparison is with lightweights such as ELO or Left Banke.

In my mind, Cheap Trick arrived a moment too late: right as glam was turning into hard rock. The only way out was through punk, but Cheap Trick were, finally, a little too conservative, their love of the Beatles the weight around their necks.

Again, please be clear: the comparison I've made is to see if we need to bring Cheap Trick down a more realistic critical notch, not to actually compare the two bands - apples to apples - musically.

It's funny how we differ on the role of timing, Dr. John. I think Cheap Trick was helped by arriving during the dog days of Arena Rock, being able to deliver some joy with the Power and Glory of Rock. I think that had they come earlier in the '70s, when the likes of The Raspberries and, more importantly, Wings were going strong, I question whether Cheap Trick would have had the easily digestible tuneage to make it as far as they did. And THAT gets back to reason I chose such a relatively lightweight power pop band for comparison. Had the bands gone head-to-head in 1974, I don't know that Cheap Trick would have done any better than The Raspberries. Likewise, had The Raspberries appeared in their prime a few years later, I don't know that they would have done any worse.

BigSteve said:

They are who we thought they were!

I say:

YES! And the fact that their living pastiche of 70s, tuneful, hard-rock-ism was actually who they really were makes them the first post-modern band that didn't crawl up it own ass and die there.

They're a living rock convolution. AND they rock mightily.

I never meant to imply that I DON'T like The Rasps, I just like Cheap Trick more, & that's mainly Carmen's fault. I think Mr. Bryson was a pretty kick-ass gtr player. My like of Cheap Trick is based almost entirely on the 1st four STUDIO albums, & NOT any stage antics Rick may have gotten up to, though I probably would have found them the more entertaining live band, 'cuz I don't mind a little "mach schau" sometimes, as long as it isn't a load of messianic posing, like certain huge bands I have bitched about before. If it's not overly self-serious, it can be FUN! To paraphrase Percy Plant, "Does anyone remember FUN?" It has it's place in Rock & Roll, ya know.

cdm, I feel like there might be a few possibilities between "shining emptiness" and "big statement." Don't you?

And hey, if you wanna say "I prefer the Raspberries because I like tuneful shining emptiness," that's fine with me. All I ask is that you cop to the values you're using to make the decision--and that's a way you could do it.

And, obviously, I'm sure you won't expect me to join you.

Jay-zus, Mary & Joseph, is anybody else gonna add to the Irish thread, or is it the old "Irish Need Not Apply" in the old town hall?

As hvb reminds us, Cheap Trick rock. Can you really make the same claim for the Raspberries? I haven't heard them in a long time, but I don't recall much rocking. It helps to have a really good drummer, and I think Mr. Carlos is way under-rated.

Here's another question. Cheap Trick's 5th album was the one produced by George Martin. It wasn't very good. Were they just running out of steam by that point, or can we blame Martin for destroying their career momentum?

I didn't think he was a good match for the band. I never really heard the supposed overt Beatlisms in Cheap Trick's work, but then that stuff usually goes right past me, maybe because I have issues with the Beatles. I don't hear them in Oasis either.

Anyway I think they worked better with a hard rock producer, letting the songs themselves bring the pop.

mwall says:
"I feel like there might be a few possibilities between "shining emptiness" and "big statement." Don't you?"

I say: I do, and I think the Raspberries occupy that gray area. No big statements, just catchy tunes in keeping with a long tradition of the modern pop song.

mod, thanks for the props on "Let's Pretend." it's a gem of a tune.

Carmen's penchant for shmaltz works when he's a hopeless romantic with a hard on. and Let's Pretend and "Go All the Way" are great examples.

before they play on the Mike Douglas show, Mike introduces them by saying that their shtick is to take the music of the 50s and update it with electric guitars. I used to think that was Hooey, but then I remembered a song like "Tonight" with its echoed backing vocals and melodies, or the verse melody to "Go all the way", both of which are very old school. And it seems like a perfect organic formula for sounding like the Beatles without copping their chord changes; strap on the SG and try to mimic the same influences the Beatles themselves have.

As 2k suggests, Cheap Trick were working from a palette that included more recent stuff, probably the Raspberries themselves, as well as things like glam rock.

i'm not breaking much new ground here, am i?

well...neither were they.

and it's very rare that i have a desire to listen to either, which is kind of telling, considering my tastes.

the photon band's bassist is a Cheap Trick knucklehead, however, and I don't think he likes the Raspberries much at all.

next time I see him, I'll ask him why.

As far as the "weirdness" aspect of Cheap Trick goes, one thing I don't think anyone has mentioned in this thread is their indebtedness to The Move, particularly some of the later-era Wood songs. They did cover both Brontosaurus and California Man.

Their stage antics aren't all that far off from Wood's Napoleon Hat and eyepatch costumes. And overall - and the part that appeals to me about their best songs - is that Cheap Trick seems to try to reach for the whole Power & Glory of Rock 'n Roll thing that Wood went after. A song like Surrender, which I'd agree is their best, works for me because they're clearly going all out. Even a song like Dream Police, which isn't nearly as good, still works to the extent that it does because they're pulling out all the stops and buying into their "Comic Book Rock" persona, shameless in the best sense.

Overall, I'm probably in line with the sentiment that they have ten or twelve songs I really enjoy and some others that I like, and those usually fall along the same lines for me. I think that's what separates them from some of the bands that would be considered their peers, who either can't or won't go all in like that.

For Go All The Way, am I alone in thinking that what really makes that song work is that they managed to figure out the exact length of time that you could wait around for the guitar to come back in? My reaction to hearing it always seems to be that the intro gets a "Yeah!" from me, and then Carmen starts his crooning and I'm all "Oh, yeah, this is how most of it goes...I still like this, right?" and I do, but I still want that intro back. And just when I'm about to lose interest, here comes that guitar again. It's only a little over a minute between those sections, but any more and I might tune out, any less it wouldn't be nearly as effective when it returns.

When I lived in NYC, at one point in the late 80s I had a weekend job at a record store. I was in my mid (to late) twenties, & the guys I worked for were forty-ish. They'd both seen The Raspberries live, & both commented on W. Bryson's Townshend-ian stage presence, & how much more rockin' they were live. Now, I don't know if their memories were clouded by whatever drugs they were on when they saw the band, but they SEEMED to have pretty clear memories of the shows they saw. Both of them also agreed that, if they had to pick a weak link, it would've been Carmen, for the same reasons I mentioned in earlier posts. He just held back on the belting it out (or maybe just relied too much on the saccharine crooning), in favor of trying to be the teen idol he apparently wanted to be. They thought the rest of the band rocked live, though.

BigSteve, I saw them on that tour, after Martin, and they definitely hadn't run out of steam live.

but i wouldn't blame martin...times were-a-changin'...the spectrum was only 2/3rds filled that night...and the new material wasn't very good live.

the highlight of the show was when zander chucked an empty Kiss album cover into the audience during 'surrender' (or maybe it was when neilsen turned showed us the back of his guitar during their cover of 'day tripper' and it was a picture of the beatles).

Oats, guitar firepower alone can make me love a band. I don't think either of these two bands has enough for that, but Wally Bryson has a shotgun compared to Nielsen's squirrel rifle. Maybe living in Cleveland for my whole life makes The Raspberries my choice by default, because they have always got a lot of airplay around these parts. Cleveland media has a real complex when it comes to whether or not the world finds us likable or relevant. Clevelanders are generally happy that no one else knows how good the corned beef and beer is around here, and we like getting those things cheap!

I don't think either of these bands are Foyer of Fame material, and they both have major shortcomings I don't easily get past.

I'd easily agree 2K's final assessment. 1st Fountains of Wayne, now Cheap Trick & The Raspberries. Can you say footnotes?

Great point about the timing on that guitar riff in "Go All the Way," Alexmagic!

maybe it's an age thing, I went to Amazon and listened to sample of Raspberries songs...I have NEVER heard any of these outside of "Go All The Way" EVER not on the radio, not in a store.

I know we are not saying popular=good

Cheap Trick was EVERYWHERE in the late 70's and 80's on Rock Radio (up through 1989 or so)when I was growing up.

Somebody said "I'd just listen to Van Halen" well I guess I put them in the Kiss, Van Halen, Blondie, AC/DC, Ramones group of bands that WERE the late 1970's to me, where The Raspberries are a band of which I know one song.

Maybe I need to get that best of and see what the hoopla is all about?

BigSteve commented on The Raspberries "I know that great music has been created with not much more than the aim of striking it rich, but these records just seemed too calculated, and everything was too pretty."

Can this be considered the Insincerity Fallacy?