Coltrane - The Byrds

Sun Ra - MC5

Yes, cdm. Then the question is, should either Coltrane or Sun Ra have had more influence on rock 'n roll? (I would think at least Coltrane did for some of Television's extended flights.)

Oops! Ignore that last post. I didn't read the instructions very well.

No problem, cdm. Your oversight will benefit others.

Coltrane is mighty, no doubt. And, according to the rules, falls firmly into the jazz category...as cdm pointed out. I certainly would Coltrane his props, though as he was the first one to pop into my mind, too.

I'm going to throw out another obvious (to me) choice: Ravi Shankar. He's probably the biggest non-pop music rock star to live. Of course, his ties to George Harrison are there, but he totally devastated the audience at Monterey and the Bangladesh concerts. I might even say that the term "raga-rock" owes its existence to Ravi. It's a style unto itself that found a large audience and influenced some biggies.

But, like Terry Riley (whom I also dig, thanks to Pete), a little bit of Ravi goes an awful long way. I don;t know if his influence should have been greater, but I like the reseults of his influence. Perhaps it was just the right amount of influence.

This may be my problem with most "modern" composers a la Steve Reich or John Cage. They are brilliant in theory, but who actually enjoys some of their more "indulgent" creations? I appreciate the fact that whatever sound happens within a certain time period IS the music itself, but give me "She Loves You" any old time.

Does that make sense?

TB

Maybe it's interesting on a one-off basis but I don't particularly want to see more of those influences in rock because it either:
1. makes that makes it something other than rock, or
2. it turns into a kind of cultural carpet bagging like Paul Simon's African dalliances or David Byrne's Brazilian fetish.

I'm wondering about the influence of Ali Farka Toure on the possibilities of trance, shoegazing, and drone rock. It's interesting to see, for instance, the connection between Toure and some of the drone elements of the Fat Possum label bluesmen like Junior Kimbrough and R.L. Burnside. Of course the problem lies in determining which way the influence is really running: from Africa to New Orleans or the other way around? Still, maybe a bit of that depth would help with the rather plastic drone stuff that seems to be all around in the past few years. In the long run though, yeah, I don't think it could be much more than a dalliance or a fetish.

Within a certain zone of the avant rock strata, one's band should take a drone break (very Indian), the same way bands in the 70's would throw in the marginally effective reggae tune in as an album track. I'm thinking Boris, Six Organs of Admittance and the like although hasn't Yo La Tengo had their drone-y, Velvet's like passages?

I don't think individual artists from other cultures will become more influential. The language barriers work against stardom for artists from outside the rock zones (except perhaps for instrumentalists like Ravi Shankar). I think it's more likely that styles from different countries will filter into rock the way reggae did. Bob Marley's charisma certainly fed into that trend, but the large influx of Jamaican immigrants into the UK was very influential, and to this day Anglo-European dance music is suffused with the influence of dub.

So demographic trends in the US would seem to indicate that American music will feel more influence from south of the border. There's still a language barrier there, but parts of the US are becoming increasingly bilingual. Maybe someday Los Lobos will be revered as grandfathers of a new Mexamerican rock.

I also think that M.I.A. could be an indication of where music might go in the future. She's proven that electro/hiphop/dance music can take in influences from the Caribbean, Asia, Africa, and Brazil and succeed artistically and commercially. Guitar/bass/drums rock is long past its sell date, but it gave birth to a kind of electronic music that can assimilate other musics more easily.

I don't mind anyone being an influence, so long as the music stays noticeably rock n roll, which to me means American or the British interpretation. I don't care if someone that plays far eastern music or jazz decides to incorporate a little rock n roll into their music, but I probably won't like it. I just don't care about East Indian music with a disco beat.

I know that's kind of backwards from the question, but I don't mind anyone's influence so long as it's minor. I hate that British Dance Hall stuff The Beatles and The Kinks did. I think a lot of Herman's Hermits sounded like that stuff, but had cute boys with long hair singing music for teenage girls that their fathers didn't mind, by boys their fathers thought were gay anyway.

What Townshend did with Terry Riley's stuff is pretty cool. It sounds like some weird outer space music, and right about when I get ready to totally tune out, it gets very rock n roll. Daltrey screams, the guitar and drums come blasting in. That's cool. Mrs. Jones You've Got A Lovely Daughtah does more to pollute rock n roll than to advance it.

I like how Jeff Beck turns his guitar into a distorted, fuzzy sitar on Heart Full of Soul or how Brian Jones destroyed a sitar on Paint It Black. It's sort of how I like how Steely Dan sort of sounds like jazz, but it's not.

So I think I'd rather have anonymous sources influence my rock n roll, because when I look into these other kinds of music I'm pretty much always disappointed, if not totally turned off.

I'm not surprised that many of you fear the influence of too many non-North American sounds, but as a few of you have pointed out, Eastern music did a lot to make '60s psychedelia as fun as it is.

I also find it funny, but not unexpected, that people can take shots at Paul Simon and David Byrne but likely will have no beefs with the first person who cites a more contemporary indie artist with South African or South American influences, no?

I guess M.I.A. is a worthy person to bring into the conversation, but isn't her latest hit, "Paper Planes," just a reworked sample of The Clash's "Straight to Hell?" Not that I'm complaining.

I don't keep up with the latest productions by hip-hop artists, but I know they're always bringing some new version of the "I Dream of Jeanie" sound into their works - I'm thinking of Missy Elliot, right?

There's a lot of great music outside the tradition that led directly to rock 'n roll, no? I think the minimalists have played a nice role in fleshing out rock arrangements. I don't know much about classical music, but for those who do, are there certain eras or classical composers that have been underrepresented in modern-day string arrangements?

And TB, I've got a lot of Terry Riley stuff. I don't get tired of it. I've got my share of Steve Reich too, but I do find Phillip Glass more of a bore over the long haul.

Mod sez:

I guess M.I.A. is a worthy person to bring into the conversation, but isn't her latest hit, "Paper Planes," just a reworked sample of The Clash's "Straight to Hell?" Not that I'm complaining.

I say:

*I* sure as hell am! That song is absolutely awful. Don't know what we'e talking about? Watch *this*, if you dare!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaxIELjpDxc

Hrrundi,

Choosing a "live" performance on Letterman by a hip-hop artist is not what I'd call giving the song a "fair shake." The studio video allows the listener a better chance to reflect on the riffs lifted from The Clash - plus you get to see the artist's eyes, which are attractive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sei-eEjy4g

Mod: “I also find it funny, but not unexpected, that people can take shots at Paul Simon and David Byrne but likely will have no beefs with the first person who cites a more contemporary indie artist with South African or South American influences, no?”

Me: Maybe that’s because I assume that a new indie artist has arrived at this multi cultural sound more organically because they don’t have a back catalog of songs in a particular style and then a series of albums that co-opt different genres like Mr Simon did with gospel, reggae, south African music and show tunes. That technique seems a little grabby to me even though I like some of the results.

But in general, if a cultural style of music interests me, I’m much more likely to try and follow the trail to the source.

Regarding classical music's influence on rock, I really enjoyed the Kinks' baroque period. From Face to Face through Lola, they used harpsichord a lot and a kind of polyphony that seemed obviously influenced by baroque music. From Muswell Hillbillies on though that disappeared, and no one else ever took up that approach that I know of.

CDM said:

"More organically"?!?

What, by listening to Graceland and Remain in Light?

Straight To Hell itself was multi-culti. And Strummer's solo career went further along those lines.

I'm not sure how I feel about the blender approach. It's risky. In a way Paul Simon doing a straight reggae track (the great Mother & Child Reunion) or collaborating directly with South African musicians playing a specific style is more likely to work. But mixing things up is probably more likely the way things will go in the future.

I'm not saying anybody has to like this stuff, but if you're going to be a musical dinosaur you should own up to it. Look at history. Attempts at enforcing cultural purity haven't worked out too well. And rock & roll itself is already a mongrel.

I am a musical dinosaur.

I'm not trying to enforce musical purity, I'm just saying that rock music has been fairly codified and at a certain point it stops being rock and roll and starts being something else (world music? Afro-Cuban something-or-other?) And I don't think that's just semantics.

I don't know how even us dinosaurs can so easily write off new (old) cultural influences? I'm not talking about that band that guys like The Great 48 like - the one that does "fake" music of an Eastern European bent (although if that's your bag, more power to you) - but the kind of stuff that Talking Heads did, when they brought in influences from that Fela guy and whatever other African sounds they were digging. The influence on the guitar playing alone was a breath of fresh air.

As you know, I've been digging that Ethiopian stuff from the '60s. I know their music was influenced by our music, but they've got their own rhythms and melodies that I'd rather hear someone try to bring into rock music rather than adopting the latest in 128-string guitar technology. I'd much rather hear their approach to horns, for instance, than another rote session by the damn Memphis Horns.

When I lived in Hungary I used to wonder if their "opposite" sense of rhythm had any place in rock 'n roll, that is, putting the emphasis on the first and third beats, which as far as I know only funk musicians have done in our pop music. I came to the conclusion that this went too far against rock 'n roll, but it's an example of something to consider.

You're yankin' my chain, right? RIGHT? That song bee-ell-oh-double-you-ess BLOWS.

I don't object at all to M.I.A.'s sampling of "Straight to Hell." It is a reappropriation of the musical riff that the Clash borrowed from overseas.

Sort of like Cornershop's cover of "Norwegian Wood," where they draw attention to how the musical line was lifted from India.

Hrrundi, I have had many a good chuckles over the phenomenon of this M.I.A. character. The whole "Ooooh, her father was a Detroit Tiger," or whatever that revolutionary group was called, is the first thing I chuckle about. Who is she supposed to be with those slight ditties, the new Tupac? SHOW ME THE MUSIC!

Then, let's face it: she's good looking, and the more we nod our heads in agreement with her slight ditties the more time we'll have to figure out what she's got cooking under the baggy shirts she too often wears. (Early dismissal. Patience/tolerance.) All that's well and good, but SHOW ME THE MUSIC!

That said, I've got her first album (or the first one that caused a buzz in the US) and I've heard a few songs from her latest album, and I find nothing offensive or unlistenable about them. I'm taken back to the days when you might hear a Tom Tom Club song while trying on jeans at the GAP. What's wrong with that, provided you find a pair of jeans that fit?

Oh, Lord. There goes Dr. John again, on his quest for the perfect back story. I ask this literally and sincerely: do you like MIA's music?

I could give two shits about whose music she samples, and why. I suppose I might spare a shit or two on the topic of *which* music she samples, and *how*, but that's not what you're on about here. I am not afraid to say: whoever's music she's sampling here, for whatever reason, and no matter what hot,sexy vibe she's putting out as she sings and dances her way into the world's heart -- this song BLOWS!

The rap is weak! The "singing" is weak! The beatz (notice hipster street parlance) is weak! What's to like here? Somebody enlighten me!

(I feel like Gergley taking on the world on the topic of Wilco at the first RTH forum.)

HVB

But in general, if a cultural style of music interests me, I’m much more likely to try and follow the trail to the source.

I will give the album Remain in Light major props for turning me onto all sorts of African music. I think I heard my first King Sunny Ade records not long after that and made various connections.

Actually, the real question should be: what major British rock band hasn't drawn from these influences? Jimmy Page used to openly discuss his use of what he called CIA (Celtic, Indian, and Arabic) musical forms.

NO, Dr. John, the REAL question - and the real question for you too, Hrrundi, you lover of that Japanese Jellyfish wannabe! - is "What musicians outside the blues, R&B, jazz, and country (ie, North American) musical traditions would you like to see have a greater influence on rock 'n roll?"

Dr. John, Hrrundi's got a point: you're spending more time auditioning for a spot rewriting the next edition of the Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock than honestly commenting on M.I.A.'s music.

Hrrundi, Dr. John's got a point too - I'm just not sure what it is at the moment. Patience, my friend, tolerance.

The rest of you are working hard, confronting the real questions at hand. For that I thank you.

WAIT: I get Dr. John's "real question" now! I thought he was trying to bash back at Hrrundi. I was wrong - he DID have a point! To answer your question, consider the following major British rock bands that did not pull on the influences of the "CIA," I'll start by throwing out consideration of "Celtic" influences. That's their own folk music - that's as if I allowed Country music as a non-North American influence in this discussion. So lets focus on Indian and Asian influences in British rock.

The Who barely pulled on either culture's music, unless you count the Eastern influences that Townshend would have gotten through the multiple Eastern influences Riley had absorbed. Yeah, they've got a couple of stock "See My Way" (isn't that the title?) type songs, but direct Eastern influences play very little role in the music of The Who.

The Kinks - beside their sitar number (is it their song that's called "See My Way") - their claimed first use of sitar in rock - and maybe one other song, the East plays only a passing role.

Then there are others, mostly contemporaries of Zeppelin: Free. Bad Company. Black Sabbath. Deep Purple. Queen.

So, I'm not seeing it.

I also find it funny, but not unexpected, that people can take shots at Paul Simon and David Byrne but likely will have no beefs with the first person who cites a more contemporary indie artist with South African or South American influences, no?

Vampire Weekend blows goats.

I'm not talking about that band that guys like The Great 48 like - the one that does "fake" music of an Eastern European bent (although if that's your bag, more power to you)

I'm gonna need more than that, because that description covers an awful lot of bands.

I'm thinking of a band you like - a guy/girl duo - that dresses like they come out of the movie Cabaret. You played us some stuff long ago. It was actually well done, but terrifying. I think they describe their schtick as fake Balkan music?

Man, I'm with HVB on that MIA song. It was free and I want my money back. Somebody owes me something for sitting through that!

I'm with cdm, too. When it stops being rock n roll, I'm off that bus. It's hard to incorporate different stuff into rock and keep the rock the important part of the song.

I think rock n roll can accept new sounds just fine, but stuff like MIA seems to be just taking the surface of too many styles and never getting into what makes any of them enjoyable or real. It looked like a commercial for clothes to me.

Just to clarify: I'm saying that if it weren't for Indian/Arabic influences, what songs would not exist or be dramatically altered?

I can think of a song each by The Who and The Kinks:
"Magic Bus": use of chanting
"Fancy": melody line

The good Doctor's question sounds like it would make for an excellent Last Man Standing post.

Just to be clear, yes, I do like M.I.A.'s music very much, but it's only rock in the very broadest sense. It's more like the grandchild of rock. I like rock as much as the next guy, maybe more, but face it it's played out. I loved my grandpa too, but it's not like he could teach anything except about how things used to be. Rock that doesn't want to be influenced by anything outside of its original sources is the musical equivalent of a Buick.

Don't forget the authentic tribal drums on the Kinks' Holiday in Waikiki. There are steel drums on Supersonic Rocket Ship from the Showbiz LP. Apeman also has that same kind of faux calypso thing going on. I'm On An Island from Kink Kontroversy and Monica from VGPS too. No Return on Something Else is bossa nova. There's also the embarrassing reggae parody Black Messiah on Misfits. And what about the pseudo-Bavarian version of Do You Remember Walter? on the To The Bone live album.

I know these aren't 'eastern,' but they are examples of influences on the Kinks music that aren't Anglo-American.

Dr. John REACHED with the following:

I can think of a song each by The Who and The Kinks:
"Magic Bus": use of chanting
"Fancy": melody line

CHANTING?!?!? You're certain that's Eastern chanting, not a form of chanting derived from blues, R&B, jazz, country, or gospel music?

I did acknowledge that the Who and the Kinks had made some nods toward the East in their music, but to say they were significantly influenced, as Jimmy Page seemed to have said, is not right.

BigSteve, your further examples also don't support Page's claim, don't you think? What's more troubling is your belief that rock 'n roll can withstand no more influences outside the typical sources. I thought you were among the most open-minded and progressive of Townspeople. What is this place coming to?

If I may interject into the Mr. Mod/Great 48 conversation, at first I thought Mod was describing Beirut. Then his follow-up post seemed to describe The Dresden Dolls, and I don't think those bands have much of anything in common.

Also, I like "Paper Planes" just fine. I like the chorus, for taking on fears of immigration in as un-PC a manner as possible. I think Mod's comparison to the Tom Tom Club is the best way to put it across to people here who regard this song unfavorably.

Dresden Dolls! That's the band I had in mind. Yes, Beruit is another one I've heard. OK, I get them confused. There's another band called Gogol Bordello, or something like that. I'm not sure if I've ever heard their music, but I assume it sounds like those other two bands. Thanks, Oats, and thanks for verifying my Tom Tom Club comparison.

I like Gogol Bordello. They keep rock as the main part of the music, but sort of bend their culture to fit into rock. I like that and I can appreciate it. Through the Roof n' Underground is a great song.

You really think rock n roll is played out, BigSteve? I totally disagree with that. I keep reading about Post Rock, and the only thing I see is people that think the only good rock was done by The Beatles generation up to and possibly including punk rockers. Everything after is seemingly considered shit that's already been done. I find that to be the height of arrogance. Just being able to spot the influences shouldn't discredit newer artists.

In fact, I'd rather listen to music that's come out since 2000 more than the music I grew up with. How many more times can I listen to Bad Co or Queen before I drive my car into a brick wall? Maybe if radio had let rock evolve instead of stagnating around the hits of the 70's it would be more interesting, but as it is, I'm more than happy to never get sick of the music I buy because the only place I hear it is my place.

I've lost track of what Page's point was, and what mine was too. I was just trying to show off my Kinks knowledge.

I still listen to rock. I just mean that, as narrowly defined, rock can only shuffle the same deck so many times. The obvious way for it to renew itself is to acknowledge that we're not the center of the universe anymore and engage the rest of the world musically.

Besides the whole clichéd 'latin music' you occasionally here in the radio, i don't think Mexican, and other Hispanic folk music has had as much influence as it could have over rock music. There are sorts of styles and intersting sounds that have already been proven to be applicible to rock music. Café Tacuba's Re is a very good example. I know i push that band a lot, but they're really worth a listen if you want an idea of all the stuff that's being missed simply because of language barriers.

Also, for the record, I do enjoy Kala by MIA. I think it's a fun record, and Paper Planes really isn't really representative of her music. Bird Flu is a very interesting, crazy and entertaining song, that you should probably listen to before you dismiss her.

And yeah, Beirut do similar things for eastern-europeon folk that cafe tacuba did for mexian folk music.

The language barrier can be a big one to overcome, hissing fauna. I remember a German band I used to hear years ago, when we lived in Hungary. Their name translated to the Fantastic Four, or something like that. Their music was always much better than most of the non-English EuroRock I used to hear at that time, and I used to think I'd pick up an album, but then I'd think, "I'll be missing a significant part of the songs if I can't follow the words." I'm not even close to a "lyrics first" guy and I have these concerns.

I'm tight with Thomas, the bass player for Gogol Bordello, and let me tell you that band is *very* multicultural. Thomas, for one, is from Ethiopia. Mod, he and his older brother know (I mean personally) all those happening 60s/70s Ethiopian/funk dudes you like so much.

I find it fascinating that among the younger Ethiopian expat musical community here in the states, the *dominant* musical style is reggae. And, no, it's got nothing to do with the whole Rasta/Selassie thing. Marley was just such a transcendant figure -- even in the podunk corner of Africa where I did the high school thing, he was -- I dunno, like I suppose Dylan was to frustrated white kids in the 60s. Talk about Revolution rock.

Another Ethiopian friend of mine told me that, back in the 70s, when Mengistu's commie stooges were ruling the country, customs guys were instructed to impound any reggae -- and *especially* Marley -- albums they found. That's how dangerous they were considered. It's a testament to Marley's crossover appeal that whitey in South Africa wouldn't/couldn't impose the same ban, even though Marley's music was an overt challenge to the apartheid system, and Lord *knows* they banned far lesser things.

Very cool to hear, Hrrundi and 2000 Man. It sounds like I had NO IDEA what the music of Gogol Bordello sounds like or that they had an Ethiopian band member. Shame on me! I'll check them out based on your words.

Honestly, one of the reasons I hope rock 'n roll can make some small steps through the influx of new cultural influences is because one of the other ways rock nudges forward is through technological developments. I'm not real hopeful that technology has been a big help of late. I'm sure someone's making the new technology work for their music, but too often I hear it being used to CONTROL the music, to CONTROL the environment in which we listen to the music. When humans struggle to bring in new ideas through their bodies, things can go wrong - or not so right. That seems more hopeful to me.

Whoops - I just checked out Gogol Bordello. I have heard them before. They're OK - they'r like Tenpole Tudor with Yakov Smirnoff on lead vocals. A WHOLE LOTTA SCHTICK for what could be Joe Strummer and the Mescaleros. Not bad, but not the breakthrough I was looking for. HOWEVER, these guys are a fine example of a rock band incorporating non-North American influences. And the beat goes on...

Put me down for the M.I.A. song. I like a lot of her stuff. It isn't rock, by most working definitions, but it's very good, a lot of it. Once a friend brought me a CD of something she wanted me to hear. I had given her some Balinese and Sundanese gamelan. She put on this "gamelan" that sounded like REM writing for gamelan in a bad way. A lot of I and IV with this totally Western grammar, or syntax, where there're these big kind of emphases when it comes back to the home chord. Basically unplugging the magical engine that keeps gamelan sounding like a baloon being kept in the air by everyone in the room blowing at it, rather than the huge, metal bronze objects they are!

Now, that's taking the "idea" of western pop and taking it to gamelan. I would suggest it is easier to throw one more dog into the mongrel of rock and pop, for sure.

As with a lot of questions on RTH, where showing the math is important (we want to know how you got there instead of reading a dogmatic answer only,) what matters to me is HOW other musics are used. Samples are fun, but I do end up hoping that some of my fave artists don't get diluted in my brain by causing me to think of [insert pop artist here] instead of the original piece I like. But a band that does something else with it is something more engaging. As has been hinted, a lot of bands have run out of steam and employ "world" or what have you as a gimmick to rejuvenate.

Simon has admitted some of this with "Mother and Child..." and such. When Sting made his first post-Police record, the headline in the Village Voice was "Sting With Negroes." Very mean, funny, and true. It's the trap of hiring soul as a ringer if you have none yourself.

I guess, I am also thinking in terms of, if a given person has an idea to incorporate another groove into their musical lexicon, why not leave "rock" out of it? When Junior Mints was playing our arrangements of Bartok's Micrcosmos at the East Side Club in 1982, we didn't change a not in the pieces. Just changing instruments. It was funny how well that worked. Even the punkeratzi enjoyed it!

Anybody here fond of Dengue Fever? Hokey band with great Cambodian vocalist. I would not listen to this band without the cute lead singer, but they work doing this stuff. I am patiently tapping my toes for Mod to finally burst the dam and include threads on things like this without bringing "rock" into it at all. Yes it is Rock Town Hall, but if baseball makes it in, why not Uma Roy & Hom Nath?

Besides the whole clichéd 'latin music' you occasionally here in the radio, i don't think Mexican, and other Hispanic folk music has had as much influence as it could have over rock music. There are sorts of styles and intersting sounds that have already been proven to be applicible to rock music. Café Tacuba's Re is a very good example. I know i push that band a lot, but they're really worth a listen if you want an idea of all the stuff that's being missed simply because of language barriers.

Funny, because I was just about to mention Pistolera, a New York band whose starting point is the norteno and conjunto music of my homeland. This is undoubtedly one of those things where being the group's primary southwesterner comes into play, but I find their music deeply satisfying, because it takes a style of music that I like but which can be awfully slick and gives it a bit of a kick in the ass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjtKiuWVSDA

Also, the singer looks like 95% of the girls I was chasing in high school.

General Slocum wrote:

I am patiently tapping my toes for Mod to finally burst the dam and include threads on things like this without bringing "rock" into it at all. Yes it is Rock Town Hall, but if baseball makes it in, why not Uma Roy & Hom Nath?

General, I encourage you to use your Back Office privileges and get this going. Seriously. I try to bring new things into the Hall under the cloak of Rock because a) it's what I know best and b) it's something folks can react to. For this thread, for instance, I enjoy knowing that some rockers may be squirming at the thought of what's been proposed, but it's fun when someone unexepected breaks through and pushes the discussion along. 2000 Man, for instance, began this thread a little uncomfortable with the entire idea but eventually added to the chatter. That's cool. If we could get discussion going on completely non-rock topics that are not framed by a rock perspective, more power to us. I'm not the man for that job, however. You, Buskirk, and some others who check in on a regular basis could, I bet. Turn us on, Townsman!

As for the occasional baseball discussion that breaks out, it's wholly appropriate and healthy. Trust me. Or should I say, Tolerate me. Thanks.

Bring on the influences, I say, but you gotta draw the line somewhere...and the accordion is on the other side of the line.

I'm not against the accordion altogether, I'm just asking the musical question - can an accordion rock?

I say YES, Al. Did you ever see the original Ben Vaughn Combo, when they were more of a real combo and less of a backing band for Ben, or were you already out of the area? Gus Cordovox played some rockin' accordion, pumping out rhythms and adding some fun fills along the way.

When it comes to spotting non-Western influences (including but not limited to Page's interest in Indian and Arabian tonalities), there is, in the first case, a melody line that uses non-Western intervals--like the Kinks song, "Fancy."

The second case is a kind of worldview constructed using non-Western ideas. This is where The Who comes in. Their numerous songs about the search for transcendence (such as "Magic Bus", "The Seeker") are influenced by what many would call Eastern philosophy (although the term itself is misleading). And thus the musical textures (such as the chanting in "Magic Bus" which uses to my ears distinctly non-Western tonal inflections) arise out of such a worldview.

In other words The Who demonstrate that the cultural context for ideas shapes how those ideas are musically expressed.

Dr. John, to quote you: "...the Kinks song...": THE Kinks song. I know about "Fancy." The Kinks do not have many other songs that use even vaguely Eastern melodies.

As for what you say about The Who, that's mostly backstory - and Townshend's lyrics were at least as influenced by Dylan, drug intake, and other factors than his guru at that point in his development! You pointed toward the "chanting" in "Magic Bus" as an example of their Eastern influence. Stand by that silly choice or give it up.

Can an accordion rock? Are you for real? Have you guys never heard zydeco? I once saw Beau Jocque play in a bowling alley in New Orleans, and I thought it rocked harder than anything I'd ever heard. Seriously.

There's an excellent double-CD anthology of Clifton Chenier on Rhino if you want to check him out. The album Bogalusa Boogie is good too. Or check out Boozoo Chavis or Buckwheat Zydeco for a slightly more modern take on zydeco.

I'm just asking the musical question - can an accordion rock?

That question is so inherently moronic that it's not even worth answering.

Sorry Mod, but I will have to disqualify all of your comments regarding The Who, on the grounds that you were not personally there during the moments when the songs were written or performed.

For all else, as you say, is backstory.

Excellent reply, Dr. John! Sincerely.

g48, that's the kind of answer people give when they don't have an answer!

BigSteve, a flip response to your suggestions would be for me to say "Well, if I want to call Silly Wizard rock & roll, then the accordion surely does rock."

To me, that Pistoleras video wasn't a rock & roll band using norteno or conjunto music, which I think was the directional influence that Mr. Mod was going for in this thread. As g48 said, norteno and conjunto was the starting point; it's rock & roll that's the add on.

Zydeco surely does rock but it's surely not Exhibit A (or B, C, D, and far down the alphabet) when you are trying to explain rock & roll to someone.

Beer Barrel Polka rocks in a way but that wouldn't even be Exhibit Z.

I'll re-phrase the question. Can an accordion be *the* focal point (or even *a* focal point) in a rock & roll band in the way a guitar or keyboard can be?

The Who barely pulled on either culture's music, unless you count the Eastern influences that Townshend would have gotten through the multiple Eastern influences Riley had absorbed. Yeah, they've got a couple of stock "See My Way" (isn't that the title?) type songs, but direct Eastern influences play very little role in the music of The Who.

Well, I Can See For Miles is steeped in eastern influences. Lots of drone in the tonic, even when there are chord changes over it, the vocal melody line is very much like something played on the sarod, a bowed Indian instrument, the elongated and shifting vowel sounds that Daltry makes is very much in keeping with the phased-sounding sonic arc of a sitar string when plucked--a very common vocal trope in the '66-'68 era (see Rain, See My Friends, etc), a kind of shorthand for being stoned. It was just in the air and airwaves at that time, right through the eastern-isms on Tommy (Underture, anyone?). Other Who tunes that have this stuff: Disguises, Armenia City in the Sky, a bunch of stuff on Sell Out. hell even Circles has a bit of it, a tune Townshend wrote probably prior to any awareness on his part of Indian music. Magic Bus I'm not so sure about. That's Bo Diddley and southern fried call and response front and center.

Let me give another example. I went to see David Byrne last night. (A phenomenal show and, Mr. Mod, I'm bubbling over with possible threads after this show.)

The second Talking Heads phase with the African rhythms and such is the perfect example. TH was a rock & roll band before that phase, during it, and after it. Yet, they fully incorporated a significant dose of African music in phase 2. The lines between phase 1 and phase 2 are clear and unblurred. This wasn't David Johansen reinventing himself as Buster Poindexter (I'm sure there are better examples but that's the first one that came to mind).

Is there an accordion equivalent? Do you think there could be?

Mr. Mod, seeing Tvox's post in between mine, do we have some common interests here? Does my further explication also help distinguish what you are saying about the Who versus what Tvox and the night tripper are saying?

I'm not looking for a quid pro quo but I stand on your side; these eastern touches in the Who are too slight to qualify for this thread. What next, that Mozart incorporation in Tutti Frutti because they both use a do and a re and a mi?

Al, I think you're making a tautological argument. You admit that zydeco does in fact rock, yet you deny that it *is* rock. Then you ask if the accordion can be the focal point in a rock band, while seemingly defining a rock band as an entity that cannot have an accordion as its focal point.

The accordion btw is also used to rocking effect is some South African styles. And David Thomas of Pere Ubu plays the melodeon, a diatonic button accordion. On one of those download only live Ubu albums, he plays Pushin' Too Hard on the melodeon to hilarious effect.

Big Steve, I'm saying zydeco may rock but it's not rock & roll. All rock & roll rocks but not everything that rocks is rock & roll. For you maybe that's a distinction without a difference but for me it's not.

And I think for the purposes of this thread you need such a distinction. Otherwise, how can you tell what's incorporating what? Cajun music existed long before rock & roll, didn't it? And did that cajun music rock? I'm not denying that since the "invention" of rock & roll that cajun music might have incorporated elements of rock & roll but where's the line between that and the elements of cajun music that rocked before the birth of rock & roll.

And I have the same comments about accordion in South African music; it may rock but is it rock & roll?

You may have me on David Thomas; I'll have to think on that a bit.

BigSteve notes:

On one of those download only live Ubu albums, he plays Pushin' Too Hard on the melodeon to hilarious effect.

I say:

Hilarity rarely rocks. I'm with Al on this one; his logic seems sound to me.

these eastern touches in the Who are too slight to qualify for this thread. What next, that Mozart incorporation in Tutti Frutti because they both use a do and a re and a mi?

That's like saying the Beatles "Rain" was too slight. But perhaps "Love You To" qualifies? Your line drawing seems a bit arbitrary, is all.

Tvox, you made a fine effort to defend the Good Doctor's suggestions - AND you wisely steered clear of the chanting in "Magic Bus." Because Dr. John already got me with a good zinger, I will say no more on that subject, only acknowledge your fine effort.

Al, yes, Talking Heads Phase 2 are the best example I can think of - they never took so big a detour during their African-rhythm phase that they stopped being Talking Heads. As a result, I think they helped expand the vocabulary of rock 'n roll. Few if any have done it as well as they did, but they opened doors to some new approaches that also spilled over into other related genres.

In light of this, I better understand your accordion question - and just as I was about to agree with you and say, No, the accordion will never be able to rock in the way you have framed your question, I'm reminded of the time I saw Richard Thompson at the old Chestnut Cabaret with David Thomas of Pere Ubu opening. For most of his set Thomas, on occarina - a form of an accordion, right wearers of the Pince Nez? - was accompanied only by classic Ubu bassist Tony Maimone. They did a lot of Thomas' solo "hits" with the Pedestrians, with whom Thompson had recorded. Then he brought out Thompson's accordion player, John Kirkpatrick (I believe that was his name). Kirpatrick on accordion, Thomas on occarina, and Maimone on electric bass proceeded to play a 15-minute medley of Pere Ubu's greatest hits, including rockers like "Non-Alignment Pact," "Street Waves," and "Navvy." It was awesome - and it rocked! The medley didn't rock the way the fully incorporated T-Heads could rock, but it quickly overcame novelty and felt like a performance of Pere Ubu songs by Pere Ubu band members.

I think the real problem with accordion is that it has such a narrow dynamic range. Accordion always sounds like accordion, always seems to give off the same emotional vibe. It's a bit like a Farfisa or Vox organ in that way. You hear the accordion and there's a pretty definite vibe coming your way, and it's a vibe that only seems to hit one narrow strip on the rock dynamic. Maybe it would be different if someone could run an accordion through a fuzz box and a Leslie speaker.

SHOOT! The Pince Nez is going to come down on me for my calling Thomas' medodeon an occarina!

Hrrundi wrote:

Hilarity rarely rocks.

You're gonna be hearing from The Great 48 for that one!

When Thomas plays the Pushin' Too Hard riff on the melodeon it is purposely non-rocking. If memory serves he then proceeds to play another unrelated song using the same two-chord riff on melodeon, apparently just to mess with the audiences preconceptions. Still Pere Ubu is demonstrably a rock band (whose front man sometimes plays an accordion). So I might disagree with Al's claim that "all rock & roll rocks." I might also agree with the statement that "all that rocks is not rock & roll," but where does that leave us? There are no lines that can be drawn. Or each listener draws his own more or less arbitrary line. Tout le monde a ses raisons as Renoir says in Rules of the Game.

And I think for the purposes of this thread you need such a distinction. Otherwise, how can you tell what's incorporating what? Cajun music existed long before rock & roll, didn't it? And did that cajun music rock? I'm not denying that since the "invention" of rock & roll that cajun music might have incorporated elements of rock & roll but where's the line between that and the elements of cajun music that rocked before the birth of rock & roll.

There's a big historical flaw in your argument: Cajun music didn't really predate rock and roll. The two things were on parallel growth tracks, sharing many of the same early influences. I would suggest that the main difference is that the ratio of western swing to jump blues is about exactly reversed in Cajun music as compared to rock and roll: there's more Bob Wills than Louis Jordan.

Alan Lomax recorded some things that we'd recognize as proto-Cajun in Louisiana in the '20s, but then, he recorded some things that we would recognize as building blocks of rock and roll in the same time and place. And the Cajun equivalent to "Rocket 88," "Jolie Blon," predates the records generally identified as the first rock and roll by no more than a couple years.

For that matter, you could make an argument that what we now recognize as Cajun Music didn't really start until the Cajun Renaissance of the late '60s, when the move to reclaim Cajun identity gained momentum. Like a lot of other cultural subgroups, many Cajuns had largely self-assimilated during and after WWII, when cars and money led them to migrate out of southern Louisiana. (Note the parallels to the development of electric Chicago blues -- you could argue that the Cajun equivalent was what was retroactively termed "swamp pop," Tony Joe White and the productions of Huey Meaux. The Cajuns mostly went to east Texas and the Hill Country, not Chicago, which is where I was introduced to the culture, mostly through my Uncle Elwood, who was married to one of my mom's sisters. To this day, I can't understand a damn word the man says.) Calvin Trillin had a great piece in the New Yorker from this period about the Breaux Bridge Crawfish Festival that's in his book AMERICAN FRIED: it really captures the mood of that time and place in rural Louisiana.

So anyway, what I'm saying is that not only does Cajun music NOT particularly predate rock and roll, I would argue that the majority of Cajun acts at least since the days of the Balfa Brothers and the Sundown Playboys were incorporating at least some rock and roll influences.

I think the real problem with accordion is that it has such a narrow dynamic range. Accordion always sounds like accordion, always seems to give off the same emotional vibe. It's a bit like a Farfisa or Vox organ in that way. You hear the accordion and there's a pretty definite vibe coming your way, and it's a vibe that only seems to hit one narrow strip on the rock dynamic.

Whuuuuuuuuuuuuut?

Are you saying you get the exact same "emotional vibe" from a Cajun two-step, a Polish polka, a Brazilian forro, and a French musette?

Now that you mention him, John Kirkpatrick playing accordion with Richard Thompson's electric band on, for example, Tear Stained Letter (and other songs) is a pretty good argument for the ability of the instrument to rock in the rock & roll idiom.

Yeah, Mod, something's wrong with your accordionic perception. The melodica is kinda-sorta the poor man's accordion, and you haven't been melodica'ed until you've heard the awesome dub stylings of Augustus Pablo on that simple instrument.

All rock & roll rocks but not everything that rocks is rock & roll.

What about Boston? They certainly don't rock, unless sucking can sometimes be considered rocking.

I like Zydeco, though. I'd never buy it but there's a college station that has a three hour zydeco show once a week and I love it when I catch it. I have never been to Louisiana, but I would love to go and see zydeco music in someone's back yard, eat crawdads and drink American beer in cans with people I can't understand. I think that looks like fun.

Yes, Great One, I get a pretty limited range of feeling out of accordion music. I've welled up with tears hearing "Moon River" played by a guy on accordion at an outdoor cafe in Sienna, Italy, but even then the instrument has a tone that connotes a jolly, empathetic, mustachioed man, possibly wearing suspenders, who's trying to touch my heartstrings and make me think about how much I feel connected to my community. There's no LONE WOLF accordion. There's no EVIL accordion. There's really no KICK-ASS accordion. I've yet to feel SEXED UP from an accordion part. Even while Dennis Quaid is getting it on with Meg Ryan or whomever in that '80s movie, The Big Easy, I still hear the organ and envision the jolly, mustachioed man, possibly wearing suspenders, trying to make me feel in tune with my community.

Double reverse pince nez! Mr. Mod said "occarina" not melodica> An ocarina is a usually oval-shaped flute-like instrument. As far as I know it has not yet been featured in dub, though it should be.

"Are you saying you get the exact same "emotional vibe" from a Cajun two-step, a Polish polka, a Brazilian forro, and a French musette?"

Whew... and here I thought that I was the only person who got suckered into buying that Planet Squeezebox box set.