"White Stripes will = T.Rex"
By Mr. Moderator on Feb 22, 2009
In response to my speculation that The White Stripes will be remembered along critical and popular lines similar to the ways in which T.Rex* is remembered today, Townsman dbuskirk wrote:
Remind me again how being remembered as well as T.Rex is a bad thing? I can't recall meeting too many rock fans who didn't have a special place in their heart for them. Devendra Banhart stole half of his act from the acoustic Tyrannosaurus Rex LPs and coincidentally just recently I met a very smart and hip twenty-year old who was all about her T.Rex t-shirt. From DJing weddings, I know that "Bang A Gong" is pretty much a guaranteed cross-generational dance floor filler.
To clarify, I didn't say it was a "bad" thing, but it's not uncommon for Townspeople to interpret any insightful, piercing analysis on a favorite artist's legacy that is anything less than unconditionally loving as somehow negative and insulting. Let's work through this misunderstanding and reserve compliments for my off-the-cuff analysis from earlier this morning for possibly another thread. Here goes...
Follow up:
What I wrote, while Townspeople were declaring what side of the Baby Boomer War they were on, that I had hoped would provide musical focus to yet-another troubling discussion over The White Stripes, was this:
I agree that White Stripes have a little more going for them, long term, than Outkast. Unless Jack White can actually broaden the band's palette - and not by making more Raconteurs records - I could see the band going down in history like T.Rex: remembered by most casual rock fans for a couple of super-catchy singles, loved by some rock nerds for what they did within narrow stylistic confines and thought of by just as many rock nerds as a band that could have, should have been better if not for their inability to work beyond their self-imposed, narrow stylistic confines.
Reading this again, I have to say it was a quite unifying statement, likely to instigate the healing we have coming to us...until my man db had to tap his pipe and question what I could have possibly been suggesting. The funny thing is, in his questioning, db verifies two of the three prevalent points of view I outlined:
- The wedding dancers represent the mainstream love for the band's biggest hit and probably one or two other not-as-readily identified hits.
- Devendra Banhart and the hip 20-year-old girl who likely was as attracted to the hot image of Marc Bolan on her t-shirt as she was his band's deep traxx represent the rock nerds who cherish the depth they find in Bolan's narrow pool of work.
Why can't our T.Rex-loving friend see the third, equally represented piece of the puzzle that I identified, people like myself, who find the hits more fun than a barrel of monkeys, like the general approach the band took to making records, yet cannot find evidence that T.Rex was anything but a very fun record-making outfit that had not a drop of emotional or intellectual content that resonated with us. Think of his contemporaries: David Bowie on one end of the spectrum and David Essex on the other. Bowie was groundbreaking; Essex was, for Americans of my generation, at least, possibly the greatest 1-hit wonder of his time, a lightweight, even to a generation of American rock nerds desparate for coming across one more song with the magic of "Rock On." The magic of Marc Bolan and T.Rex is that they were able to replicate the futuristic-retro-boogie catchiness of "Rock On" a dozen times over! And he was super-cool and good-looking to boot.
Check out the above clip, from 1971, and imagine it as a scene from my imaginary documentary of John Lennon during the early, idealistic years of his solo career. In my film, Lennon is seen sitting among the crowd of young people, surrounded by Klaus Voorman and Yoko. While the earnest Bolan plays to an audience including the master himself, Lennon is seen suppressing a smirk and leaning over to whisper observations to a stoic Voorman. Bolan assumes the kid-size mantle of Donovan. Later claims that Bowie stole his act are better not aired. Years later, Rock Town Hall adds T.Rex to its own smirking set of tags that sometimes appear in tribute to Townsman Hrrundi's Holy Trinity of Rock.
Am I totally off base? Without getting into the possible accuracy of my prediction for The White Stripes' eventual legacy (and without taking the easy route and simply complimenting me for my astute and unifying observations) - and without being blinded by your probable love for T.Rex's dozen takes on "Rock On" - is there anything behind the fun of those records? If they do resonate with you on a level beyond Man, that is so cool! (not that there's anything wrong with that), can you please describe it? I walk this earth troubled and confused by such questions, and before I trouble anyone else with my possibly ill-informed views I hope to know what T.Rex love is, I want you to show me.
Thanks.
*I looked it up: the band's name was presented as T.Rex. I can never keep that straight, so I've taken the liberty of changing all quoted, previously incorrect stylings of the band's name. Your ability to spell the band's name throughout the comments in this thread may reflect on the authority of your opinions.
43 comments
Comment from: dbuskirk [Member] 
"people like myself, who find the hits more fun than a barrel of monkeys, like the general approach the band took to making records, yet cannot find evidence that T.Rex was anything but a very fun record-making outfit that had not a drop of emotional or intellectual content that resonated with us."
I think I value a band that can be consistently as fun as a barrel full of monkeys more than The Mod does. The emotional content could often be described as "joyous". If The Mod is looking for "intellectual content" perhaps I could steer him towards Sting's philsophical treatsie "Russians".
It's viewpoints like the Mod's that keep comedies from winning Best Picture while "intellectual content" like OUT OF AFRICA takes home the Oscar.
Is this connected to people's perception of surrealism as childish and immature? Bolan's Lewis Carroll-isms may be open to interpretation but it doesn't make them without emotional impact. Bob Dylan can move me to tears with "Visions of Johanna" but I have no idea what he really "means" there.
I think I value a band that can be consistently as fun as a barrel full of monkeys more than The Mod does. The emotional content could often be described as "joyous". If The Mod is looking for "intellectual content" perhaps I could steer him towards Sting's philsophical treatsie "Russians".
It's viewpoints like the Mod's that keep comedies from winning Best Picture while "intellectual content" like OUT OF AFRICA takes home the Oscar.
Is this connected to people's perception of surrealism as childish and immature? Bolan's Lewis Carroll-isms may be open to interpretation but it doesn't make them without emotional impact. Bob Dylan can move me to tears with "Visions of Johanna" but I have no idea what he really "means" there.
02/23/09 @ 08:03
Comment from: diskojoe [Member]
Interesting post, Mr. Mod. Just last week, I had a Tyrannosaurus Rex comp playing in my car on the way to a Gloucester record store to trade away a bunch of CDs' including late-period Jonathan Richman & both Raconteurs albums.
First off, "Tyrannosaurus Rex" was used in the hippie bongo-playing period w/Steve Took & "T. Rex" is basically "Ride a White Swan" forward.
I've been enjoying Marc Bolan's work for the past few years now. When I started getting into music in high school, I was listening to Bowie more, but lately I've been listening to T. Rex a lot more. To me, Bolan is someone that I know is full of it, but I enjoy listening to his stuff, especially the singles, although I also enjoy deep tracks such as "Spaceball Ricochet". He did have a limited talent, but he used what he had. It's no shame to be compared to Donovan & it's no same for the White Stripes to be compared to T. Rex.
First off, "Tyrannosaurus Rex" was used in the hippie bongo-playing period w/Steve Took & "T. Rex" is basically "Ride a White Swan" forward.
I've been enjoying Marc Bolan's work for the past few years now. When I started getting into music in high school, I was listening to Bowie more, but lately I've been listening to T. Rex a lot more. To me, Bolan is someone that I know is full of it, but I enjoy listening to his stuff, especially the singles, although I also enjoy deep tracks such as "Spaceball Ricochet". He did have a limited talent, but he used what he had. It's no shame to be compared to Donovan & it's no same for the White Stripes to be compared to T. Rex.
02/23/09 @ 09:11
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
dbus, I'll buy "joyous." Didn't I give T.Rex cred for that already with my "so cool!" comment? Do you really get other emotional responses from him music than an endless stream of high-class takes on "Back Off Boogaloo"? Please note that I dig that Ringo song, by the way, almost as much as I dig "Bang a Gong" and "Rock On." I look forward to hearing how Bolan had more to offer than maybe a dozen songs that reached the heights of "Rock On." Not that that's a bad thing...
02/23/09 @ 09:13
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Diskojoe, I agree wholeheartedly with your "no shame in being compared to..." statement. That's part of what I'm getting at.
02/23/09 @ 09:14
Comment from: Oats [Member]
Well, to me a song like "Metal Guru" beats the piss out of "Rock On," a song I don't really care for all that much.
Mr. Mod, allow me to hypothesize that, similar to AC/DC, T.Rex has a comic-book approach to rock that may turn you off. I say this as someone who likes both bands, but whose knowledge of comic books is mostly theoretical.
But anyway, T. Rex for me combines The Power and Glory of Rock with a goofy space-age sense of style. Also, I dig the arrangements: heavy guitars and drums, sax, strings, falsetto harmonies. Marc Bolan had actual stage/vocal presence, as well as a "to be young, beautiful and doomed" air about him, which is why "Back Off Bugaloo" is unworthy of comparison. A better comparison point, I think, may be The Move.
Mr. Mod, allow me to hypothesize that, similar to AC/DC, T.Rex has a comic-book approach to rock that may turn you off. I say this as someone who likes both bands, but whose knowledge of comic books is mostly theoretical.
But anyway, T. Rex for me combines The Power and Glory of Rock with a goofy space-age sense of style. Also, I dig the arrangements: heavy guitars and drums, sax, strings, falsetto harmonies. Marc Bolan had actual stage/vocal presence, as well as a "to be young, beautiful and doomed" air about him, which is why "Back Off Bugaloo" is unworthy of comparison. A better comparison point, I think, may be The Move.
02/23/09 @ 10:03
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
I appreciate what you say here, Oats, but I'm not seeing how you've done much more than highlight what I've already said. I love The Move, but I wouldn't claim that they're rock's most emotionally resonant band either. They happen to resonate more for me because I find Roy Wood's approach more inconsistent and rickety, leaving their songs a more "vulnerable" appeal FOR ME than I get from T.Rex's sterling arrangements, but I don't see how comparing T.Rex to The Move differs much from my slotting them among the best of Ringo, AC/DC, The White Stripes, and Donovan.
You didn't grow up with "Rock On," so I won't hold that against you and your generation:)
You didn't grow up with "Rock On," so I won't hold that against you and your generation:)
02/23/09 @ 10:23
Comment from: Oats [Member]
I feel like the "emotionally resonant" thing is a red herring that gets pulled out from time to time to damn any artist who never recorded his/her equivalent of Plastic Ono Band. "Emotionally resonant," in addition to being totally subjective, is as dangerous as The Sincerity Fallacy.
I mean, I'm not the biggest T. Rex fan in the world. But I feel they fill an important slot in my personal rock universe. I don't really see the point in enumerating all the things their music doesn't do. Should emotionally unresonant artists get an asterisk, in the "using steroids in baseball" sense?
I mean, I'm not the biggest T. Rex fan in the world. But I feel they fill an important slot in my personal rock universe. I don't really see the point in enumerating all the things their music doesn't do. Should emotionally unresonant artists get an asterisk, in the "using steroids in baseball" sense?
02/23/09 @ 10:32
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
Bah humbug. T. Rex is more meta-rock, as far as I'm concerned. When I talk to my hipster friends about this band, it seems clear that the love they show for elven dandy Marc Bolan has everything to do with the mystique of the man -- handed down through rock lore for decades, and by now having achieved a meaningless, conflated momentum of its own -- and only a little to do with the music. I'm on Team Mod for this one: I like 'em about as much as I like, say, Slade or the Cars -- and T. Rex seems about as "important" as those two bands to me.
02/23/09 @ 10:38
Comment from: alexmagic [Member]
I think a key distinction between the White Stripes and T. Rex would be expectations and the ceilings that have been set. For better or for worse and through a combo of their own self-mythologizing and the praise of critics, the Stripes have considerably more at stake as far as their “Rock Legacy” goes than Bolan did. Jack White, in particular, has been positioned as one of the big names in his generation’s musical scene, and naturally any later evaluation of the band is going to take into account how they fared against the expectations that have been lined up for them in the present.
Which doesn’t necessarily say much about their music, of course. I don’t know if I’d consider myself a fan – I haven’t seen them live, and I don’t feel the need to go out and get the albums as they come out – but I do like their music most of the time. They get enough press that I tend roll my eyes when they have something new coming out, but when I hear it, there’s usually at least one or two songs that remind me that, hey, they really are good, and I think that a song like “Seven Nation Army” is going to end up with a higher profile when compared to the songs of its time than something like “Bang a Gong” has in relation to its rock era.
But this gets back to expectations. I’ve never known anyone to go into a T. Rex song or album looking for some kind of deep emotional connection. That’s just not what the band did once the name was shortened. Bolan was a master of rock sleaze, and his best songs completely sell the feel of decadence, debauchery and lethargy. Nothing more was promised, nothing more should be expected, and on that front, I think T. Rex delivers completely. In fact, I can think of few bands who more thoroughly fulfilled their potential than T. Rex.
Bolan’s lyrics were often intentionally and humorously nonsensical, but like buskirk says, they still got across what he was singing about. I don’t know that “I could have loved you, girl, like a planet…I could have chained your heart to a star” makes any kind of literal sense, yet I still get it. And they also made connections with the music: If I read the lyrics, I wouldn’t have half a clue what “Rabbit Fighter” is about, but when that guitar break kicks in, there’s definitely something there that I’m hooking on to.
My suggestion with T. Rex is to go back and listen to the songs to see whether you think they succeed on this kind of level. In my mind, “Rock On” is kind of airless and never connects with me, while songs like “Life’s A Gas”, “Rip Off”, “The Slider”, “Solid Gold Easy Action” and “Chariot Choogle” are practically dripping with character.
Which doesn’t necessarily say much about their music, of course. I don’t know if I’d consider myself a fan – I haven’t seen them live, and I don’t feel the need to go out and get the albums as they come out – but I do like their music most of the time. They get enough press that I tend roll my eyes when they have something new coming out, but when I hear it, there’s usually at least one or two songs that remind me that, hey, they really are good, and I think that a song like “Seven Nation Army” is going to end up with a higher profile when compared to the songs of its time than something like “Bang a Gong” has in relation to its rock era.
But this gets back to expectations. I’ve never known anyone to go into a T. Rex song or album looking for some kind of deep emotional connection. That’s just not what the band did once the name was shortened. Bolan was a master of rock sleaze, and his best songs completely sell the feel of decadence, debauchery and lethargy. Nothing more was promised, nothing more should be expected, and on that front, I think T. Rex delivers completely. In fact, I can think of few bands who more thoroughly fulfilled their potential than T. Rex.
Bolan’s lyrics were often intentionally and humorously nonsensical, but like buskirk says, they still got across what he was singing about. I don’t know that “I could have loved you, girl, like a planet…I could have chained your heart to a star” makes any kind of literal sense, yet I still get it. And they also made connections with the music: If I read the lyrics, I wouldn’t have half a clue what “Rabbit Fighter” is about, but when that guitar break kicks in, there’s definitely something there that I’m hooking on to.
My suggestion with T. Rex is to go back and listen to the songs to see whether you think they succeed on this kind of level. In my mind, “Rock On” is kind of airless and never connects with me, while songs like “Life’s A Gas”, “Rip Off”, “The Slider”, “Solid Gold Easy Action” and “Chariot Choogle” are practically dripping with character.
02/23/09 @ 10:41
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
In fact, the more I think about it, the more right I feel. I think we should re-name this thread:
White Stripes = T. Rex = The Cars
White Stripes = T. Rex = The Cars
02/23/09 @ 10:41
Comment from: 2000 Man [Member]
For me, T. Rex was best summed up by a friend that turned me on to Electric Warrior. He said, "The first time you hear this you'll think it's the coolest thing you've ever heard. Next time it won't be.". He was right. It's a great album but it reveals itself fully very quickly and it's not quite juicy enough to really get into over and over.
02/23/09 @ 10:49
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
Wow, 2k just saved me a bunch of time writing up my experience with the band. I missed them the first time, other than enjoying Bang a Gong, and a couple of years ago I decided to buy a couple of their albums to catch up and educate myself. 2k's post describes what happened to a T.
02/23/09 @ 10:56
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
To better understand what's bugging the likes of you and db, Oats, can you explain what it is that you feel lacking in my description of the three main perspectives that seem most prevelant regarding T.Rex? I sense that you guys are hung up on my take on the band, which I'm certain that other Townspeople share but are having trouble expressing while respecting my request to load up on personal compliments for how I have stated things.
Here's where I'm coming from with probably most of my attempts at such clear-headed perspectives on what you maybe correctly characterize as cartoonish bands - and this goes beyond my intitial attempt in the White Stripes' thread at simply providing some musical focus to quell a geezer path we were headed down over whether The White Stripes were "overrated" or not: as much as I embrace the DIY inclusivity that the punk era helped usher to some choice seats in rock, I always question whether we go too far in mixing the best of rock's second-tier and outsider artists, my share of whom I embrace, with The Masters. Perhaps it's only rock fans older than 40 who tend to worry about possible "greatness inflation" when confronted with questions like The White Stripes' eventual place in rock history, but for those of us who are concerned with such things, I feel it my place to ask some tough questions and make sure that we're comfortable with some of the Critical Upgrades we see being processed.
For instance, sometimes I read stuff written about T.Rex and scratch my head over attempts at seemingly raising Bolan's work to the level of Bowie's. I've seen this in the pages of Mojo, for instance. Maybe it's different for Brits, but you guys know my feelings on Bowie and I'm not close to ready to think of Bolan in the same league as Bowie. If we're headed for a rock world in which Bolan is hiked up to the same critical level as Bowie, then are we comfortable dragging Donovan and The White Stripes to that same level? I'm sorry, but in all fairness I think that does a disservice to the hard work and top-level work that Bowie did for a decade. I'm a competitive person and I think competition plays a role in the arts. I usually give the artist who lays his or her balls, so to speak, on the table a little more credit than a 1-dimensional, pixie dust-blessed hit maker. It's a hard world to get a break in... If rock 'n roll is the closest thing I'm going to have to organized religion, then its high priests better deliver something a tad more than retro-futuristic-moonbeam boogie.
I can understand a life without god and/or religion, but a life without god-ike status for music or some other branch of the arts? I can't go that far.
Here's where I'm coming from with probably most of my attempts at such clear-headed perspectives on what you maybe correctly characterize as cartoonish bands - and this goes beyond my intitial attempt in the White Stripes' thread at simply providing some musical focus to quell a geezer path we were headed down over whether The White Stripes were "overrated" or not: as much as I embrace the DIY inclusivity that the punk era helped usher to some choice seats in rock, I always question whether we go too far in mixing the best of rock's second-tier and outsider artists, my share of whom I embrace, with The Masters. Perhaps it's only rock fans older than 40 who tend to worry about possible "greatness inflation" when confronted with questions like The White Stripes' eventual place in rock history, but for those of us who are concerned with such things, I feel it my place to ask some tough questions and make sure that we're comfortable with some of the Critical Upgrades we see being processed.
For instance, sometimes I read stuff written about T.Rex and scratch my head over attempts at seemingly raising Bolan's work to the level of Bowie's. I've seen this in the pages of Mojo, for instance. Maybe it's different for Brits, but you guys know my feelings on Bowie and I'm not close to ready to think of Bolan in the same league as Bowie. If we're headed for a rock world in which Bolan is hiked up to the same critical level as Bowie, then are we comfortable dragging Donovan and The White Stripes to that same level? I'm sorry, but in all fairness I think that does a disservice to the hard work and top-level work that Bowie did for a decade. I'm a competitive person and I think competition plays a role in the arts. I usually give the artist who lays his or her balls, so to speak, on the table a little more credit than a 1-dimensional, pixie dust-blessed hit maker. It's a hard world to get a break in... If rock 'n roll is the closest thing I'm going to have to organized religion, then its high priests better deliver something a tad more than retro-futuristic-moonbeam boogie.
I can understand a life without god and/or religion, but a life without god-ike status for music or some other branch of the arts? I can't go that far.
02/23/09 @ 10:56
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
2K, you - and your friend - are The Man!
I thank all of you who've chimed in on this important topic so far, and T.Rex thanks you for making an attempt the styling their name as they styled it on their album covers.
I thank all of you who've chimed in on this important topic so far, and T.Rex thanks you for making an attempt the styling their name as they styled it on their album covers.
02/23/09 @ 11:02
Comment from: alexmagic [Member]
I missed the Mod/Oats exchange before posting my last reply, but Oats raises some good points. On the “comic book rock” side of things, Bolan was quite literally shooting for that feel, what with dropping Silver Surfer and Doctor Strange references in his lyrics, and half of his songs are full of characters with faux-super hero names. I gotta think there was a big stack of Marvel UK comics that Bolan would routinely pass out on, and he absorbed them into his cosmic sex-wizard persona.
The AC/DC comparison is pretty interesting, because they both approached the same goal – sonic sleaze – from opposing directions. AC/DC was the hard-drinking, shoplifting 15 year old boy approach, T. Rex was the nerdier, pretending-to-like-poetry, faux-sensitive approach. I’d say they both succeeded, as Oats says, due to a combination of the music and the presentation. With the emphasis on Look and feel here at RTH, I’m surprised that two bands who managed to tie both aspects into their music as well as these two did fall into a blind spot for you, Mod, but that's OK.
Anyway, all this said, I do agree that there’s only so much you can get out of T. Rex because of the limited creative window Bolan opened for himself, but holy shit was he really great at working in that space. I say take it back to the music – give Chariot Choogle and Rabbit Fighter another listen and tell me whether you “feel” that sonic sleaziness. Maybe you don’t, or maybe that holds no appeal for you, but it works for me and I think it’s the root of Bolan’s appeal in general for other fans.
Adding: I'd also argue that this is what separates Bolan from a guy like Donovan. I actually like a handful of Donovan songs in the right setting, but the only real comparison is the hippie background and the lispy affectations. Put one of those T. Rex songs up against "Mellow Yellow" - the closest Donovan song I can think to attempt some kind of palpable sense of decadence - and you can get a sense of what Bolan was best at doing.
On the Bowie side of things, I get the sense that your issues with Bolan are the same as with Bowie, that the performance aspect of what they were doing just doesn't appeal to you. I think Bolan was as good as Bowie at doing that small window of what Bolan did (though Bowie had the better band), but Bowie also tried to do more in his role as a Rock Actor. He maybe wanted to be, say, the Rock Olivier, while Bolan was content to be the Rock Oliver Reed, or maybe the Richard Burton of Rock.
The AC/DC comparison is pretty interesting, because they both approached the same goal – sonic sleaze – from opposing directions. AC/DC was the hard-drinking, shoplifting 15 year old boy approach, T. Rex was the nerdier, pretending-to-like-poetry, faux-sensitive approach. I’d say they both succeeded, as Oats says, due to a combination of the music and the presentation. With the emphasis on Look and feel here at RTH, I’m surprised that two bands who managed to tie both aspects into their music as well as these two did fall into a blind spot for you, Mod, but that's OK.
Anyway, all this said, I do agree that there’s only so much you can get out of T. Rex because of the limited creative window Bolan opened for himself, but holy shit was he really great at working in that space. I say take it back to the music – give Chariot Choogle and Rabbit Fighter another listen and tell me whether you “feel” that sonic sleaziness. Maybe you don’t, or maybe that holds no appeal for you, but it works for me and I think it’s the root of Bolan’s appeal in general for other fans.
Adding: I'd also argue that this is what separates Bolan from a guy like Donovan. I actually like a handful of Donovan songs in the right setting, but the only real comparison is the hippie background and the lispy affectations. Put one of those T. Rex songs up against "Mellow Yellow" - the closest Donovan song I can think to attempt some kind of palpable sense of decadence - and you can get a sense of what Bolan was best at doing.
On the Bowie side of things, I get the sense that your issues with Bolan are the same as with Bowie, that the performance aspect of what they were doing just doesn't appeal to you. I think Bolan was as good as Bowie at doing that small window of what Bolan did (though Bowie had the better band), but Bowie also tried to do more in his role as a Rock Actor. He maybe wanted to be, say, the Rock Olivier, while Bolan was content to be the Rock Oliver Reed, or maybe the Richard Burton of Rock.
02/23/09 @ 11:12
Comment from: Oats [Member]
...remembered by most casual rock fans for a couple of super-catchy singles, loved by some rock nerds for what they did within narrow stylistic confines and thought of by just as many rock nerds as a band that could have, should have been better if not for their inability to work beyond their self-imposed, narrow stylistic confines.
I have no problem with this. I'm in the second category. A bunch of you guys are in the third. That's fine. I get your reservations about T.Rex. I just don't really agree with them. Am I supposed to be in the second category, yet bow to the third category members' superior taste and discernment?
Also, I missed out on any MOJO issues that seemed to elevate Bolan to ridiculous lengths. Is that stuff really relevant anymore? I'll buy it once in a while, because it's one of the few magazines I can find in Borders that'll have big, 10-page articles about Jarvis Cocker or Nick Cave, but MOJO has next-to-no effect on large-scale musical legacies. They can't make or break dead rock stars.
Also, I don't think the White Stripes are based purely on second-tier and fringe rock acts. They sound Zeppelin-esque on occasion, or at least like a band that owns Zeppelin albums.
02/23/09 @ 11:21
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Alexmagic, I'm not sure I know "Chariot Choogle" and "Rabbit Fighter" by title, but if I go back and listen to those tracks do you promise not to tell anyone? That's not the sort of "decadence" I am drawn to, but I'll try.
To be clear: I probably like a dozen T.Rex songs, and I think 3 or 4 are FANTASTIC.
To get back to the "decadence" thing, maybe this has never been a drawing card for me as a rock fan. I feel one must live to one's own state of decadence, not depend on rock stars through whom we live vicariously. I hit my real-life limit long ago, got all I could out of it, and moved on. Once I put my face through the hole in the big cardboard cutout of Mick, Keef (with bottle of Jack), and some "colored girls" gathered around a mic in a basement in France. It was cool for an hour before I realized my own limited musical ability and judgment were suffering.
As for the rock acting thing, sure that's always a stumbling block for me, Alexmagic, but I can get by that now and then. For as much shit as I give him, I think Bowie is a MAJOR artist of tremendous depth compared with Bolan. Little details in "Young Americans," for instance (not every cool guy's idea of a great Bowie song, I imagine) bring a tear to my eye - just thinking about them. Perhaps going back and trying T.Rex again will finally unlock something I'd never heard before and stuff that makes me squirm, as I fear "Rabbit Fighter" will do, will resonate on a more meaningful level, the way a good 20 Guided by Voices songs finally did when I went back and tried them again after blowing off even the songs I initially liked when I first spent significant time with them.
To be clear: I probably like a dozen T.Rex songs, and I think 3 or 4 are FANTASTIC.
To get back to the "decadence" thing, maybe this has never been a drawing card for me as a rock fan. I feel one must live to one's own state of decadence, not depend on rock stars through whom we live vicariously. I hit my real-life limit long ago, got all I could out of it, and moved on. Once I put my face through the hole in the big cardboard cutout of Mick, Keef (with bottle of Jack), and some "colored girls" gathered around a mic in a basement in France. It was cool for an hour before I realized my own limited musical ability and judgment were suffering.
As for the rock acting thing, sure that's always a stumbling block for me, Alexmagic, but I can get by that now and then. For as much shit as I give him, I think Bowie is a MAJOR artist of tremendous depth compared with Bolan. Little details in "Young Americans," for instance (not every cool guy's idea of a great Bowie song, I imagine) bring a tear to my eye - just thinking about them. Perhaps going back and trying T.Rex again will finally unlock something I'd never heard before and stuff that makes me squirm, as I fear "Rabbit Fighter" will do, will resonate on a more meaningful level, the way a good 20 Guided by Voices songs finally did when I went back and tried them again after blowing off even the songs I initially liked when I first spent significant time with them.
02/23/09 @ 11:25
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Oats wrote:
That's very funny - and a deserved cut on me!
Am I supposed to be in the second category, yet bow to the third category members' superior taste and discernment?
That's very funny - and a deserved cut on me!
02/23/09 @ 11:26
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Did someone say otherwise, Andyr? That would be embarrassing.
02/23/09 @ 12:07
Comment from: mwall [Member]
T. Rex brings major Power and Glory, I think, along with a sleazy sexual bitterness that is pretty cool. But the Slider is pretty consistently surprising mainly for how hard it rocks--a surprise, of course, given the band's hippie profile.
02/23/09 @ 14:43
Comment from: Al [Member]
Wow! Like all great RTH threads, this one makes me feel totally inadequate. Who knew there were so many T. Rex fans here in the Hall – and all can express my feelings for Bolan better than I can?!?
I have over 50 T. Rex CDs (I’m not bragging nor am I proud, just back story). I love Bolan but even I know as I plunk down for more crappy outtakes that it’s madness and so I take no offense at what Mr. Mod says. I don’t know enough about the White Stripes to venture an opinion of Mr. Mod’s projection of their future reputation but his categorization of T. Rex strikes me as solid at least insofar as the tripartite nature of Bolan fans.
And Bolan’s defenders in this thread are just as convincing. What it boils down to for me – and possibly for Oats, db, and alex but not for Mr. Mod or hvb – is that I can't think of another artist who did so much with so little as Marc Bolan did. It was a limited palette – boys & girls & love & sex & some killer riffs, not necessarily in that order – but he made some exciting vibrant pictures. And he sketched similar pictures many times but they were different enough to entrance me.
I do think Bowie ripped off Bolan. He just then went to other places which Bolan never did (and personally, I don’t think any of those places were as good as his Bolan-influenced stuff). I’ll pass on the question of whether Bowie’s Bolan-influenced stuff was better than the original. (The also-cited Donovan attempted to jump on Bolan’s glam train with Cosmic Wheels, which teeters on the line of embarrassment.)
Where I take issue with Mr. Mod is with his implication (or maybe it’s just me inferring) of a value judgment that I don’t share. It’s another facet of the recent thread on artists that haven’t grown. I don’t know that that is a fair charge to levy against Bolan. His cocaine and champagne binge helped topple him from the heights but he certainly appeared to be heading back up (and maybe even growing as more soul elements were added to his palette) when he died. Counting from the beginning of T. Rex, his career spanned about 7 years and I think it was a helluva seven years with a pretty high batting average and a solid home run per at bat ratio. The White Stripes have been around that long already. Is their average as high, with as many home runs? Someone who knows their catalog a whole lot better than me will have to answer that.
I have over 50 T. Rex CDs (I’m not bragging nor am I proud, just back story). I love Bolan but even I know as I plunk down for more crappy outtakes that it’s madness and so I take no offense at what Mr. Mod says. I don’t know enough about the White Stripes to venture an opinion of Mr. Mod’s projection of their future reputation but his categorization of T. Rex strikes me as solid at least insofar as the tripartite nature of Bolan fans.
And Bolan’s defenders in this thread are just as convincing. What it boils down to for me – and possibly for Oats, db, and alex but not for Mr. Mod or hvb – is that I can't think of another artist who did so much with so little as Marc Bolan did. It was a limited palette – boys & girls & love & sex & some killer riffs, not necessarily in that order – but he made some exciting vibrant pictures. And he sketched similar pictures many times but they were different enough to entrance me.
I do think Bowie ripped off Bolan. He just then went to other places which Bolan never did (and personally, I don’t think any of those places were as good as his Bolan-influenced stuff). I’ll pass on the question of whether Bowie’s Bolan-influenced stuff was better than the original. (The also-cited Donovan attempted to jump on Bolan’s glam train with Cosmic Wheels, which teeters on the line of embarrassment.)
Where I take issue with Mr. Mod is with his implication (or maybe it’s just me inferring) of a value judgment that I don’t share. It’s another facet of the recent thread on artists that haven’t grown. I don’t know that that is a fair charge to levy against Bolan. His cocaine and champagne binge helped topple him from the heights but he certainly appeared to be heading back up (and maybe even growing as more soul elements were added to his palette) when he died. Counting from the beginning of T. Rex, his career spanned about 7 years and I think it was a helluva seven years with a pretty high batting average and a solid home run per at bat ratio. The White Stripes have been around that long already. Is their average as high, with as many home runs? Someone who knows their catalog a whole lot better than me will have to answer that.
02/23/09 @ 15:52
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
The "more with less" aspect is valid, Al. I recall we had a thread to that effect a year or so ago. I think I cited Mott the Hoople in the intro. CCR probably came up. I'll have to dig back and see if T.Rex made it into the discussion.
I agree with Al that, all around, this is good stuff - and I really have no burning desire to "downgrade" or in any way dismiss T.Rex or The White Stripes, for that matter.
I agree with Al that, all around, this is good stuff - and I really have no burning desire to "downgrade" or in any way dismiss T.Rex or The White Stripes, for that matter.
02/23/09 @ 16:18
Comment from: Oats [Member]
I want to say one more thing:
If there hadn't been T.Rex, there would've been no Supergrass. And that, I say, would have been a small tragedy.
If there hadn't been T.Rex, there would've been no Supergrass. And that, I say, would have been a small tragedy.
02/23/09 @ 16:39
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
I was going to post a dusty old rip of this single in my next installment of Thrifty Music, but I see time is of the essence. Here's Donovan (with the Jeff Beck Group!) totally wiping the floor with Marc Bolan. From 1968 -- now you tell me who was ripping who off, T. Rex fans! Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AEPcQdHFaY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AEPcQdHFaY
02/23/09 @ 17:01
Comment from: Oats [Member]
This Donavan thing is close but no cigar. There's no Power and Glory, no arena-honed hooks. Sorry, HVB, but I think Bolan brought way more to the table than just regurgitated versions of this.
02/23/09 @ 19:53
Comment from: geo [Member]
I was getting on here to tell Summon Townsmen Al since I know he's a BIG Bolan fan, but also because, and I'm surprised he wasn't more forthcoming about this, he is also a pretty huge Donovan fan. Really! I don't think that Donovan rocks like T. Rex, but I do see some real similarities. Both were lightweight but very effective hit making machines in their prime; they had a way with a great pop recording. Had Donovan had the grace to die earlier in his career, say right after Open Road, I think Al would be out there hunting down outtakes so he could get more of what Donovan showed on the records up to that point. He stuck around, however, and pumped out a lot of myth-deflating work.
I very specifically remember on New Years Eve, 1969, one of the Philadelphia Underground FM stations, either WDAS or WMMR, played a couple of hours of the artists that someone had decided were the absolutely essential 60's artists: Beatles, Dylan, Stones, Byrds and, I shit you not, Donovan.
I very specifically remember on New Years Eve, 1969, one of the Philadelphia Underground FM stations, either WDAS or WMMR, played a couple of hours of the artists that someone had decided were the absolutely essential 60's artists: Beatles, Dylan, Stones, Byrds and, I shit you not, Donovan.
02/23/09 @ 20:27
Comment from: dbuskirk [Member]
How sad it was, to be away from the computer thinking about how everyone was trying to accept Mod's obtuse framing of rock history that somehow leaves T. Rex wanting.
I think I'm on the other end of the "competitive" scale of the Modster but I would never think of listening to one artist in a quantitative relationship to another, except maybe to say something like "That Crystal Ship, the definitely aren't The Doors". Why don't we just declare everyone lame compared to The Beatles and throw on SGT. PEPPERS one more time?
Maybe Mod is tied in lyrics more than I am, 'cause T. Rex records are enormously emotionally resonant to me, certainly as much as Bowie, but all that emotional stuff is tied into the impact of their records on instrumental, production level. Most of the time when I'm listening to music the lyrics are just melody to me. Rarely do I find it particularly interesting to know the full lyrics; being Beethoven and Shakespeare seems like two different disciplines, I don't demand lyrical profundity from a musician ("that Coltrane was great, shame he couldn't sing"). Maybe that explains why the Temps record of "Papa Was a Rolling Stone" seems as profound to me as "Like A Rolling Stone".
I love the four spare acoustic Tyrannosaurus Rex LPs (they seem like a blueprint for so much "psych-folk type of stuff I dig),the sweet spot in the middle RIDE A WHITE SWAN and then the change-up to the two electric records SLIDER and ELECTRIC WARRIOR. Sequencing and flow, these are all stellar LP experiences. If I was into counting, for me there's six great records over seven years. That's a top tier pop musical run in my book, I wish I felt as strongly about John Lennon's solo work.
Maybe we should be giving Tony Visconti credit for Bowie AND T.Rex and all go home happy.
I think I'm on the other end of the "competitive" scale of the Modster but I would never think of listening to one artist in a quantitative relationship to another, except maybe to say something like "That Crystal Ship, the definitely aren't The Doors". Why don't we just declare everyone lame compared to The Beatles and throw on SGT. PEPPERS one more time?
Maybe Mod is tied in lyrics more than I am, 'cause T. Rex records are enormously emotionally resonant to me, certainly as much as Bowie, but all that emotional stuff is tied into the impact of their records on instrumental, production level. Most of the time when I'm listening to music the lyrics are just melody to me. Rarely do I find it particularly interesting to know the full lyrics; being Beethoven and Shakespeare seems like two different disciplines, I don't demand lyrical profundity from a musician ("that Coltrane was great, shame he couldn't sing"). Maybe that explains why the Temps record of "Papa Was a Rolling Stone" seems as profound to me as "Like A Rolling Stone".
I love the four spare acoustic Tyrannosaurus Rex LPs (they seem like a blueprint for so much "psych-folk type of stuff I dig),the sweet spot in the middle RIDE A WHITE SWAN and then the change-up to the two electric records SLIDER and ELECTRIC WARRIOR. Sequencing and flow, these are all stellar LP experiences. If I was into counting, for me there's six great records over seven years. That's a top tier pop musical run in my book, I wish I felt as strongly about John Lennon's solo work.
Maybe we should be giving Tony Visconti credit for Bowie AND T.Rex and all go home happy.
02/23/09 @ 20:50
Comment from: bobbybittman [Member]
dbusk., The inside skinny I heard is that Tony Visconti doesn't deserve credit for much more than EXTREMELY successful self promotion. Sorry, but I'm not at liberty to elaborate on that.
02/23/09 @ 20:58
Comment from: dbuskirk [Member]
bobbybittman:
"dbusk., The inside skinny I heard is that Tony Visconti doesn't deserve credit for much more than EXTREMELY successful self promotion. Sorry, but I'm not at liberty to elaborate on that."
What, the whole world is Guantanamo now? We're not accepting hearsay evidence Bittman!
"dbusk., The inside skinny I heard is that Tony Visconti doesn't deserve credit for much more than EXTREMELY successful self promotion. Sorry, but I'm not at liberty to elaborate on that."
What, the whole world is Guantanamo now? We're not accepting hearsay evidence Bittman!
02/23/09 @ 21:09
Comment from: mrclean [Member]
1972. I was living in England and going to school in the equivalent of 5th grade. I went to my friend Alex's after school one day and while we messed around with his chemistry set in his room and created some messy concoction that created huge clouds of smoke (yes we were really playing with a chemistry set and not what some older boys might have been using to create clouds of smoke...)we had some music on. Guess what it was? T-Rex. I will always associate T-Rex with that afternoon. After his mum yelled at us and we cleaned up the mess we retired to the kitchen and she made us baked beans on toast.
T-Rex were hot shit in the UK in 1972.
T-Rex were hot shit in the UK in 1972.
02/23/09 @ 21:49
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
Yo, Sat -- serious question: I just this minute witnessed a 50-something dude solemnly intone on PBS:
"With the exception of Elvis Presley on the Ed Sullivan Show, there might never have been as important a moment in the hitroy of popular music as when Bob Dylan went electric at the Newport Folk Festival in 1965."
Question:
Do you agree?
Question 2: is this more generational narcissism? (Note: you may be surprised what I think about this particular incident!)
HVB
"With the exception of Elvis Presley on the Ed Sullivan Show, there might never have been as important a moment in the hitroy of popular music as when Bob Dylan went electric at the Newport Folk Festival in 1965."
Question:
Do you agree?
Question 2: is this more generational narcissism? (Note: you may be surprised what I think about this particular incident!)
HVB
02/23/09 @ 22:16
Comment from: Al [Member]
Geo, I do have lots of Donovan outtakes and let me tell you, he was Beatlesque when it came to that. There was nothing he didn't release that was worth anything. Between that and his post-Open Road career you'd think he was the one who died, not Macca. He makes Bolan's scrapings seem like the second coming of "Rock On".
Just another way he was no Bob Dylan.
Just another way he was no Bob Dylan.
02/23/09 @ 22:18
Comment from: bobbybittman [Member]
dbusk; Sorry, forget I said anything concerning Mr. Visconti. He's a genius, really. I was thinking of Tony Biscotti. Now, HE'S a big phony.
mrclean, I took a trip to Ireland w/my mom the summer of '72. I was 8, & T.Rex was playing EVERYWHERE. I remember my older Irish cousins asking me what music I liked. 'Bang a Gong' was on the radio at the time, & I started gesticulating wildly in the direction of the radio, and declared, "I like THIS!" they concurred that old Marc was indeed, a good lad, & my taste in music was OK in their book.
mrclean, I took a trip to Ireland w/my mom the summer of '72. I was 8, & T.Rex was playing EVERYWHERE. I remember my older Irish cousins asking me what music I liked. 'Bang a Gong' was on the radio at the time, & I started gesticulating wildly in the direction of the radio, and declared, "I like THIS!" they concurred that old Marc was indeed, a good lad, & my taste in music was OK in their book.
02/23/09 @ 22:39
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
db, I'm sorry I rattled your cage. I've tried to be clear: it's not just about lyrics. I don't spend a ton of time worrying about lyrics either, unless I really don't like them. I really do hear T.Rex as Donovan with a bigger beat. I like Donovan; in fact, I've been riding around the last week with a Donovan collection in my car, skipping over all the songs that cause my inner Bluto to smash his acoustic and digging all that hip nonsense, like "Sunshine Superman." It's easy to reduce what I've tried to express as "Just play more Sgt. Pepper's," but that's too easy. You don't need to stop short and be satisfied with that quip, like Bolan might have done, do you?
02/23/09 @ 22:44
Comment from: bobbybittman [Member]
Oh, I forget the ending to my T.Rex '72 story;"... & then we had beans & toast. And potatoes. And Guinness." The End.
02/23/09 @ 23:03
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
HEY! No fair dumping this topic before folks chime in on that Donovan tune! I think it's aces!
02/23/09 @ 23:22
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
I like that Donovan tune, Hrrundi! Thanks for posting the link to it. It really does say a lot about what we've gone over today.
02/23/09 @ 23:48
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
Wait, I've lost track of the logic of these equations. Are you saying after hearing Barabajagal that Jeff Beck = Jack White? Does T. Rex conga player Mickey Finn = Meg? If Tony Visconti produced the Stripes, would I like them more? I'm confused.
02/24/09 @ 00:11
Comment from: bobbybittman [Member]
No, BigSteve, from what I can tell, you're pretty much up to speed. Rest now.
02/24/09 @ 00:29
Comment from: bobbybittman [Member]
hdbakshi, I wasn't dumping the topic, just my story. Who am I to say, "This topic is finished. Back away from the keyboard & there won't be any trouble."?
We can go on for the rest of the week, month, year, for all the control I have.
I too, thought the Donovan tune was a toe-tapper. I've always preferred him as a psychedelic clown, to a cut-rate Dylan impersonator.
We can go on for the rest of the week, month, year, for all the control I have.
I too, thought the Donovan tune was a toe-tapper. I've always preferred him as a psychedelic clown, to a cut-rate Dylan impersonator.
02/24/09 @ 04:00
Comment from: geo [Member]
While I think the Newport incident had a giant effect on Dylan, I don't really believe it caused a ripple on the everyday folks that weren't among the cognoscenti that would be at the Newport Festival. Within a month after Newport, Like a Rolling Stone was number 2 on the singles chart. That's when 90% of the populace first heard the guy.
Now tell us HVB, what is your take on Dylan's 1965 Newport appearance?
Now tell us HVB, what is your take on Dylan's 1965 Newport appearance?
02/24/09 @ 20:53
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