The Necessity of an Inside Job?
By Mr. Moderator on Apr 30, 2009
In a recent Dugout Chatter, Townsman pudman13 asked the following question, and ended his question with another question, which I'm answering here, on The Main Stage! (Some editing and styling have been applied to the initial comments posted.)
Are there any truly great albums (top echelon) that are not by songwriters? When I think of the albums that rank at the very top of the critical canon, none of them is packed with cover versions (and I think that it should be that way). A few that are not by songwriters are still full of "new" material, much of which was written for the performer, creating a coherent record (eg, Dusty In Memphis).
Is this question worthy of a new thread?
Yes, I think it is. Let's get it on!
To be clear, we're discussing whether it's possible to have a great (ie, stone-cold GREAT) album that is not powered by a songwriter who is in the band.
34 comments
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
I've been thinking about this, pudman. It doesn't seem like it should be the case, but you may be onto something. Are the rise of ALBUM and the SELF-CONTAINED SONGWRITER ARTIST/BAND so closely aligned that there can be no other way?
I'm not a big fan of Dusty in Memphis, but the first artist I thought of when you posed this question was Dionne Warwick. Then I realized that I own almost nothing but hits collections by her. I think I only have one distinct album, and it's no masterpiece, just a few bricks toward completion of a hits collection.
I'm not a big fan of Dusty in Memphis, but the first artist I thought of when you posed this question was Dionne Warwick. Then I realized that I own almost nothing but hits collections by her. I think I only have one distinct album, and it's no masterpiece, just a few bricks toward completion of a hits collection.
04/30/09 @ 16:56
Comment from: BigSteve [Member] 
I'd suggest Nat King Cole's After Midnight album, but I assume we're talking about rock-oriented artists only.
04/30/09 @ 17:53
Comment from: dbuskirk [Member]
I'd swear by a handful of Nina Simone records (TO LOVE SOMEBODY, BLACK GOLD, THE GREAT SHOW IN PARIS), but then again, maybe too far outside of the rock world. I think I'll come up with something though....
Love AFTER MIDNIGHT by Nat Cole too.
Love AFTER MIDNIGHT by Nat Cole too.
04/30/09 @ 19:00
Comment from: dbuskirk [Member]
The Cat Power Covers Record? One of the discs of the decade, for me at least. Haven't dug her recently though, she sounds like tepid Pretenders these days....
04/30/09 @ 19:02
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
I know Elvis recorded before the album era, but the first Elvis album (from 1956, the one called "Elvis Presley" with the cover that the Clash used as the basis for London Calling's cover) is the first thing that came to mind.
04/30/09 @ 20:38
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
Aretha's "I Never Loved A Man the Way I Love You" (1965) is also a scorcher, though I suppose it doesn't count, because she co-wrote on three of the songs.
04/30/09 @ 20:41
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
Was "dusty in Memphis" really written for dusty?
there's a story in the liner notes about them sifting through hundreds of songs available to the label from their publishing company in order to find some of the songs that went on that album, including randy newman's "I don't want to hear it." that doesn't sound like it was written for her to me.
there's a story in the liner notes about them sifting through hundreds of songs available to the label from their publishing company in order to find some of the songs that went on that album, including randy newman's "I don't want to hear it." that doesn't sound like it was written for her to me.
04/30/09 @ 20:44
Comment from: mwall [Member]
The album Bob Dylan only has two songs written by Dylan himself, and it's pretty fucking classic. Still, two of the songs are his, and clearly the songwriter is in the band, so it loses out on technicalities perhaps.
The problem, I think, does have to do with the rock and roll context, in which covers are almost always secondary to the original except in rare instances--a song here and there, but a whole album? Jazz has more of a history of improvisation on originals and folk has has a different relation to the issue also.
Also, obviously on this list The Byrds first record is not a stone cold classic for all of us, but it is for enough of us that I think it's not a bad answer to the question, despite Mod's anti-folk dislike of the band. But in fact the album does have classic status, despite that status being in dispute around here.
The problem, I think, does have to do with the rock and roll context, in which covers are almost always secondary to the original except in rare instances--a song here and there, but a whole album? Jazz has more of a history of improvisation on originals and folk has has a different relation to the issue also.
Also, obviously on this list The Byrds first record is not a stone cold classic for all of us, but it is for enough of us that I think it's not a bad answer to the question, despite Mod's anti-folk dislike of the band. But in fact the album does have classic status, despite that status being in dispute around here.
04/30/09 @ 21:00
Comment from: 2000 Man [Member]
If I understand Pudman's initial question correctly, the album doesn't have to be completely covers, and I immediately thought of The Rolling Stones - Now! They're on fire on that album, and I think it's one of their very best.
Do we need to clarify the Top Echelon? Is it the band that's Top Echelon or the album? I can't see where I'd put Dusty Springfield in either of those categories. Then again, my idea of Top Echelon is probably pretty small in either case. Too many things are considered awesome only to fade away in a couple of years.
Not that I'm much of an arbiter where that's concerned. I miss the point on a lot of the big names in rock n roll sometimes.
Do we need to clarify the Top Echelon? Is it the band that's Top Echelon or the album? I can't see where I'd put Dusty Springfield in either of those categories. Then again, my idea of Top Echelon is probably pretty small in either case. Too many things are considered awesome only to fade away in a couple of years.
Not that I'm much of an arbiter where that's concerned. I miss the point on a lot of the big names in rock n roll sometimes.
04/30/09 @ 22:02
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Mwall wrote:
Why do you feel the need to characterize my feeling that The Byrds are a mediocre, toe-tap-worthy band by saying I'm against folk, that I'm against The People? I just don't think that highly of the band. I like Woody Guthrie. Is he not folk?
2K, you've nailed it with those early Stones records! I like their early covers as much as I like most of their early originals. Maybe Pudman is referring to all-covers albums, but if it's like a 50-50 mix (or less, as was the case with that Aretha album), maybe there are more than a handful of great albums that are not fueled by songwriters within the band. Or maybe, someone like myself, would argue that these fine albums are not the greatest of the great. Who knows?
Also, obviously on this list The Byrds first record is not a stone cold classic for all of us, but it is for enough of us that I think it's not a bad answer to the question, despite Mod's anti-folk dislike of the band.
Why do you feel the need to characterize my feeling that The Byrds are a mediocre, toe-tap-worthy band by saying I'm against folk, that I'm against The People? I just don't think that highly of the band. I like Woody Guthrie. Is he not folk?
2K, you've nailed it with those early Stones records! I like their early covers as much as I like most of their early originals. Maybe Pudman is referring to all-covers albums, but if it's like a 50-50 mix (or less, as was the case with that Aretha album), maybe there are more than a handful of great albums that are not fueled by songwriters within the band. Or maybe, someone like myself, would argue that these fine albums are not the greatest of the great. Who knows?
04/30/09 @ 22:35
Comment from: mwall [Member]
Why do you feel the need to characterize my feeling that The Byrds are a mediocre, toe-tap-worthy band by saying I'm against folk, that I'm against The People? I just don't think that highly of the band. I like Woody Guthrie. Is he not folk?
Ah, Mod, we've been through this before. There are some things about the Byrds aesthetic that you don't like but we've talked about as coming from the fact of the Byrds' folk/rock dichotomy. I don't mind that you don't like the Byrds, and if you want to say that you don't like them despite your open-minded and informed history of listening to folk music, why would I bother fighting it at this point?
04/30/09 @ 22:46
Comment from: butcher pete [Member]
Well, very few of the songs on "Off the Wall" or "Thriller" were actually written by Michael Jackson.
I'm a big fan of Jim Dickinson's "Dixie Fried" album. Don't he composed a single song.
And how about "Lady Soul" by Aretha Franklin?
I'm a big fan of Jim Dickinson's "Dixie Fried" album. Don't he composed a single song.
And how about "Lady Soul" by Aretha Franklin?
05/01/09 @ 09:48
Comment from: pudman13 [Member]
No, I don't mean "all covers" albums. ROLLING STONES NOW! and MR. TAMBOURINE MAN and the Aretha albums are very good examples and great albums, but in the case of the Byrds and Stones, they both did eclipse those records later on.
I didn't mean so much to say that the songs on DUSTY IN MEMPHIS were written for that project, but I do think that for an album of "covers," it has a really consistent sound and feel.
I didn't mean so much to say that the songs on DUSTY IN MEMPHIS were written for that project, but I do think that for an album of "covers," it has a really consistent sound and feel.
05/01/09 @ 10:15
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Thanks for clarifying, pudman13. The Flamin' Groovies' Teenage Head is generally considered their best record and that one, like the early Stones records, is loaded with a lot of what would soon be considered stock covers. They make it work and make a coherent album out of the mix.
05/01/09 @ 10:49
Comment from: pudman13 [Member]
Funny you mention IN MY OWN TIME, because to me that's a perfect example of an album that's a complete disaster because of the mix of songs and a completely inappropriate production style/backing band.
05/01/09 @ 12:03
Comment from: mockcarr [Member]
Gene Clark supplies several great songs on those first Byrds albums, so there already is a fine writer in that band.
My pick would be Fakebook by Yo La Tengo, 11 covers, 5 originals (one redone).
My pick would be Fakebook by Yo La Tengo, 11 covers, 5 originals (one redone).
05/01/09 @ 12:04
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Mockcarr has suddenly reminded me of my favorite covers/remake album, Bryan Ferry's Let's Stick Together, which I'm sure too many of you are sick of hearing Andyr and I go on about. I'll take that album over all but two Roxy Music albums, the first and the third.
05/01/09 @ 12:07
Comment from: mwall [Member]
I've never heard Let's Stick Together, and I can't be the only one.
05/01/09 @ 12:51
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
I'd love to someday play the entire Let's Stick Together album for all Townspeople - live - but first I might have to get you liquored up or whatever it takes to get into the proper mindset.
05/01/09 @ 13:21
Comment from: diskojoe [Member]
For some reason, I think that Rod Stewart's Every Picture Tells A Story belongs to this catagory, even though I think that he did write some of the songs on that album. I would also like to throw in From Elvis In Memphis, the studio album recorded w/Chips Moman in Memphis in the wake of the '68 Comback Special, that included "In The Ghetto" & "Suspicious Minds".
05/01/09 @ 13:25
Diskojoe - you beat me the the punch. Every Picture Tells A Story is among my favorite records of all time. Only 2-3 songs were written by Rod
05/01/09 @ 13:52
Comment from: alexmagic [Member]
I haven't heard Let's Stick Together, either, but I'm sure I'd probably like it.
I can't imagine, though, what the seating configuration for a live playing of it would be. Everyone sitting in a circle, facing out?
I can't imagine, though, what the seating configuration for a live playing of it would be. Everyone sitting in a circle, facing out?
05/01/09 @ 14:01
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
The only sitting would be on futon couches, with our legs kicked out. Most of us would want to be standing, clutching something cool and refreshing - or flammable, and free to engage in some subtle mandancing.
05/01/09 @ 15:13
Comment from: pudman13 [Member]
Yeah, I forgot about the Stewart album. That's another really good one that fits the bill.
I've never heard LET'S STICK TOGETHER, but someone once put a bunch of solo Ferry on a glam comp for me and I didn't really think much of it. Is this one of those things where you have to hear the whole album to get it? Or is it a case where people who like it generally are people who don't have much of a taste for Roxy Music?
I've never heard LET'S STICK TOGETHER, but someone once put a bunch of solo Ferry on a glam comp for me and I didn't really think much of it. Is this one of those things where you have to hear the whole album to get it? Or is it a case where people who like it generally are people who don't have much of a taste for Roxy Music?
05/01/09 @ 15:59
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
To me, Let's Stick Together conveys the most manly elements of Roxy Music. They usually don't play up their meat and potatoes side as a band, but Ferry let's his girdled shepherd's pie gut out for once. I'm telling you, the best of this album is more like Ferry with Rockpile than anything else. I'll try to get time this weekend to organize a "listening party." No lonely boys tracing a rain-drop down a big, dormitory window will be invited!
05/01/09 @ 16:08
Comment from: Oats [Member]
I only know a couple tracksss from Let's Stick Together, most notably the title track.
I'm all for a Listening Section. Time permitting, I could bring some supplementary material. I have many Points about Ferry/Roxy to make.
I'm all for a Listening Section. Time permitting, I could bring some supplementary material. I have many Points about Ferry/Roxy to make.
05/01/09 @ 16:28
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
I can't help it. I know it's "Let's Get Together," but whenever I hear you guys talking about "Let's Stick Together," I smell Bob Hite's armpits.
05/01/09 @ 18:21
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
I'd love to read Mod's in-depth analysis of the Let's Stick Together LP, especially since it contains a great example of bullfighting trumpet music.
05/01/09 @ 22:26
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
I'll try to get time tomorrow, BigSteve. The bullfighting segment you refer to kicks off my favorite song on that album. I may have to dowload the album digitally rather than burn my album in real time. We'll see how much time I can muster. I'd do it tonight but I participated in an hour-long scrimmage with my U12 soccer team tonight, and this old man is cooked! I'm thinking about bathing in a dissolved bottle of Tylenol before bed.
05/01/09 @ 22:34
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Hrrundi, I think they're really the same song, just variations on the title, right? I've had the pleasure of avoiding Canned Heat's version most of my life.
05/01/09 @ 22:35
Comment from: saturnismine [Member]
No love for that first Elvis album, huh? I think it might be the Uber example of the category.
05/02/09 @ 14:54
Comment from: butcher pete [Member]
Thinking about this, you can pick almost at random any great Motown or Stax album and find that the artist did not write the songs.
Sam & Dave, Isaac Hayes (*Hot Buttered Soul*!), Aretha Franklin, the Jackson Five, Marvin Gaye, Staple Singers and on and on. (Marvin Gaye's *What's Going On* was a brilliant exception.)
*Dusty in Memphis* is just another example. IFRC Aretha Franklin was offered "Son of a Preacher Man" and turned it down.
It's not that unusual really.
Sam & Dave, Isaac Hayes (*Hot Buttered Soul*!), Aretha Franklin, the Jackson Five, Marvin Gaye, Staple Singers and on and on. (Marvin Gaye's *What's Going On* was a brilliant exception.)
*Dusty in Memphis* is just another example. IFRC Aretha Franklin was offered "Son of a Preacher Man" and turned it down.
It's not that unusual really.
05/03/09 @ 03:49
Comment from: butcher pete [Member]
Also, *Breakout* and *Take a Ride* by Mitch Ryder and the Detroit Wheels and
*Young Rascals* by, um, the Young Rascals.
Great albums.
*Young Rascals* by, um, the Young Rascals.
Great albums.
05/03/09 @ 04:55
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