Triumphant Second Bananas?
By Mr. Moderator on May 27, 2009
Are there tales of triumphant second bananas in rock? I know there are second bananas who've moved away from their original band to go onto success in their own right, such as Brian Eno, but are there second bananas who have triumphed and taken over the lead of the same band? There must be, but aside from possible situations like The Beach Boys, in which leader Brian Wilson had to set aside the reigns for any sibling brave enough to pick them up, I'm not coming up with a killer example of "triumph." Maybe the power plays I'm looking for were worked out in advance of the band making it in the first place. Do tell!
32 comments
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Duh! I'll give you one example that was right under my nose: Jeff Lynne working his way up from late-addition second banana in The Move to partner with Roy Wood in ELO before quickly becoming THE MAN in said band.
05/26/09 @ 22:45
Comment from: saturnismine [Member] 
e.l.o., genesis, floyd, and menudo! what a grouping.
how about the way michael mcdonald emerged as "the man" in the doobie brothers?
was joan jett always the man in the runaways or did she move up from second banana status?
how about the way michael mcdonald emerged as "the man" in the doobie brothers?
was joan jett always the man in the runaways or did she move up from second banana status?
05/27/09 @ 03:41
Comment from: cdm [Member]
Wasn't Brian Jones originally the Man in the Stones?
If Uncle Tupelo had survived for one more album Tweedy would have fit the bill.
That drummer from the B52's moved from 5th banana to at least 3rd or 4th. Not as high profile as the other but I thought when he switched to guitar he started writing their hits.
If Uncle Tupelo had survived for one more album Tweedy would have fit the bill.
That drummer from the B52's moved from 5th banana to at least 3rd or 4th. Not as high profile as the other but I thought when he switched to guitar he started writing their hits.
05/27/09 @ 08:34
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Michael McDonald is a PERFECT example. He started as a session man, I would presume, before achieving even second-banana status.
I can't count Genesis, Pink Floyd, and other bands in which second bananas took over because the first banana left the band. That's not the same thing as "winning a power play," or however Jay Bennett characterized the move that he believes led to him being ousted from Wilco.
The B52s drummer is an EXCELLENT case of ascending bananahood, cdm. What you say about Brian Jones and Uncle Tupelo also have some merit.
I can't speak for Joan Jett's history in The Runaways, although surely she rose above that band's legacy.
I can't count Genesis, Pink Floyd, and other bands in which second bananas took over because the first banana left the band. That's not the same thing as "winning a power play," or however Jay Bennett characterized the move that he believes led to him being ousted from Wilco.
The B52s drummer is an EXCELLENT case of ascending bananahood, cdm. What you say about Brian Jones and Uncle Tupelo also have some merit.
I can't speak for Joan Jett's history in The Runaways, although surely she rose above that band's legacy.
05/27/09 @ 08:47
Comment from: alexmagic [Member]
Have we ever pinpointed the moment where McCartney started calling the shots for the Beatles? There's a John-to-Paul shift in power in there somewhere, right? I'm still leaning towards Mod's running in rock thread and the race in A Hard Day's Night for the exact moment when Paul took the throne.
If the rumblings I'm hearing from my sources on the committee hold true, we may need to explore the Doobie Brothers Civil War a bit more closely in the near future.
If the rumblings I'm hearing from my sources on the committee hold true, we may need to explore the Doobie Brothers Civil War a bit more closely in the near future.
05/27/09 @ 09:16
I would argue that The Beach Boys was so Wilson-centered that dear cousin Mike Love (of Looking Back With Love fame) was definitely second banana to Brian's genius. Brian got ill and Mike essentially took over turning the band into the State Fair oldies act we know and Love today. Now, Mike IS The Beach Boys.
TB
TB
05/27/09 @ 10:21
Comment from: mockcarr [Member]
Was Peter Holsapple second banana to Chris Stamey in the dB's initially?
05/27/09 @ 11:22
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Yes, Holsapple was a late addition to the band, but his ascendance to sole leader of the band only happened when Stamey left, right? And by then it was a crumbling kingdom.
05/27/09 @ 11:30
Comment from: northvancoveman [Member]
My understanding of Styx is this:
They were a bunch of rockin' dudes except for the keys player, Dennis DeYoung. But the keys player turned out to be the hitmaker of the band. So they would rock hard, keeping him in his subservient role until a payment was due on the yacht or plane, then DeYoung would emerge from second banana status to pen songs that were more suited to Liza Minelli than rockin dudes.
This played out for years until DeYoung finally left. There's a funny video of Styx getting pelted with beer bottles while doing some long theatrical kabuki intro to "Mr. Roboto" at Texas Stadium" while opening for ZZ Top. The rest of the band used it as an example of the humiliation they had to endure when they weren't rockin.
They were a bunch of rockin' dudes except for the keys player, Dennis DeYoung. But the keys player turned out to be the hitmaker of the band. So they would rock hard, keeping him in his subservient role until a payment was due on the yacht or plane, then DeYoung would emerge from second banana status to pen songs that were more suited to Liza Minelli than rockin dudes.
This played out for years until DeYoung finally left. There's a funny video of Styx getting pelted with beer bottles while doing some long theatrical kabuki intro to "Mr. Roboto" at Texas Stadium" while opening for ZZ Top. The rest of the band used it as an example of the humiliation they had to endure when they weren't rockin.
05/27/09 @ 12:06
Comment from: mockcarr [Member]
Holsapples' had more of a share of the poppy numbers all along though, right? Big Brown Eyes, Bad Reputation, Judy, Neverland.
05/27/09 @ 12:20
Comment from: 2000 Man [Member]
The rest of the band used it as an example of the humiliation they had to endure when they weren't rockin.
I didn't know there were that many beer bottles in the world.
I didn't know there were that many beer bottles in the world.
05/27/09 @ 12:23
Comment from: mockcarr [Member]
Styx are still the river that conducts people to hell.
I remember a VH1 top videos countdown years ago that Chris Isaak and his drummer buddy were narrating where one of their songs came up - he gave them good marks for the video, poor marks for spelling.
I remember a VH1 top videos countdown years ago that Chris Isaak and his drummer buddy were narrating where one of their songs came up - he gave them good marks for the video, poor marks for spelling.
05/27/09 @ 12:34
Comment from: cherguevara [Member]
How about Martin Gore? Rose to the occasion after Vince Clarke split.
Also, Neil Finn in Split Enz, though his brother showcased him pretty much from the time he joined the band. They made one album without Tim Finn.
Mockcarr, love the Styx comment, you're so right!
Also, Neil Finn in Split Enz, though his brother showcased him pretty much from the time he joined the band. They made one album without Tim Finn.
Mockcarr, love the Styx comment, you're so right!
05/27/09 @ 13:03
Comment from: cherguevara [Member]
Didn't Teddy Pendergrass move up from the drummer's seat in Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes?
There's a potential last man standing: Bands named for members who weren't the front person in the band.
There's a potential last man standing: Bands named for members who weren't the front person in the band.
05/27/09 @ 13:52
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
I was actually thinking about Depeche Mode for this thread because I just read a Mojo feature on them. But I was thinking more about Dave Gahan challenging Gore's role as auteur of the band. He's not really triumphant, because Gore is still the primary songwriter, but now Gahan gets 3 or 4 songs per album, which is pretty good for a guy who had been just the singer for 20 years.
It's kind of like Marty Wilson-Piper, who used to be pretty much just one of the two guitarists in The Church. Now all of the songs are listed as group compositions, and I think he sings as many as Kilbey does. Not triumphant, but a definite move up in the batting order.
How about Journey? When they started, Rolie was the singer, and the band was based around the guys who had been in Santana. Steve Perry was basically the hired vocal cords and was only added after their first album and after another singer didn't work out. Then when Perry's songs started becoming big hits, he took over the band. He eventually left them for a solo career, and they fell apart. Steve Perry, triumphant.
I can't believe I'm analyzing Journey on RTH, but somebody else started it by writing about Styx.
It's kind of like Marty Wilson-Piper, who used to be pretty much just one of the two guitarists in The Church. Now all of the songs are listed as group compositions, and I think he sings as many as Kilbey does. Not triumphant, but a definite move up in the batting order.
How about Journey? When they started, Rolie was the singer, and the band was based around the guys who had been in Santana. Steve Perry was basically the hired vocal cords and was only added after their first album and after another singer didn't work out. Then when Perry's songs started becoming big hits, he took over the band. He eventually left them for a solo career, and they fell apart. Steve Perry, triumphant.
I can't believe I'm analyzing Journey on RTH, but somebody else started it by writing about Styx.
05/27/09 @ 14:10
Comment from: hrrundivbakshi [Member]
I'm not saying Dave Grohl "triumphed over" Kurt Cobain, but he sure as hell rose from extreme second banana-hood to significant commercial triumph.
05/27/09 @ 14:52
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
HVB (MOTO), Grohl does not qualify. He did not make a power play during his course in the band with Cobain.
On the other hand, Cher shows us the way with his Teddy Pendergrass suggestion!
I know you can do it too, HVB!
On the other hand, Cher shows us the way with his Teddy Pendergrass suggestion!
I know you can do it too, HVB!
05/27/09 @ 15:25
Comment from: eh [Member]
I want to bring The Move back into play. Didn't Lynne's ascendance overlap with Wood's leaving? That is, second banana actually forces the first banana out of the band (even if forced only by first banana's own ego)?
Tina Turner, maybe?
Tina Turner, maybe?
05/27/09 @ 16:03
Comment from: alexmagic [Member]
Wood brought Lynne in to The Move to replace Carl Wayne, who had been Wood's second banana. Lynne quickly rose to equal partner with Wood in The Move, ended the band with him and moved on to Wood's ELO project, then took that over himself.
So I think what Lynne did was Rock Mutiny, but of a surprisingly subtle, devious kind. That's why you can't trust a man who wears shades all the time.
I think Mod is throwing out all Beach Boys examples with the Genesis/Pink Floyd types, but I'm with TB on Mike Love being the most triumphant Second Banana of them all. Back in the Third Bananas Battle Royale thread, I was looking at Love's rock mutiny, where he successfully took control of the Beach Boys as an intellectual property via a series of power plays, and argued that Stamos secretly became the shadowy puppet master of the Beach Boys. I stand by this claim.
Also, I really want to see this footage of Styx getting hit with beer bottles. Can somebody dig this up and move it to the main stage so we can take it into the labs and determine which member of Styx is the best at getting hit by bottles?
So I think what Lynne did was Rock Mutiny, but of a surprisingly subtle, devious kind. That's why you can't trust a man who wears shades all the time.
I think Mod is throwing out all Beach Boys examples with the Genesis/Pink Floyd types, but I'm with TB on Mike Love being the most triumphant Second Banana of them all. Back in the Third Bananas Battle Royale thread, I was looking at Love's rock mutiny, where he successfully took control of the Beach Boys as an intellectual property via a series of power plays, and argued that Stamos secretly became the shadowy puppet master of the Beach Boys. I stand by this claim.
Also, I really want to see this footage of Styx getting hit with beer bottles. Can somebody dig this up and move it to the main stage so we can take it into the labs and determine which member of Styx is the best at getting hit by bottles?
05/27/09 @ 16:48
Comment from: butcher pete [Member]
Neil Finn in Split Enz. I don't think he was even an original member. Just the younger brother who tagged along, grew up in the band, and started writing their best songs.
Also, Paul Westerberg usurped the leadership of Dogbreath didn't he?
Also, Paul Westerberg usurped the leadership of Dogbreath didn't he?
05/27/09 @ 17:25
Comment from: butcher pete [Member]
Oops, sorry cherguevara.
Yes, a second vote for Neil Finn.
Yes, a second vote for Neil Finn.
05/27/09 @ 17:27
Comment from: BigSteve [Member]
I think technically it was Dave Davies' band that Ray joined as rhythm guitarist way back when.
05/27/09 @ 18:38
Comment from: northvancoveman [Member]
Styx video. It's funny all the way through, but gets really good at 7 mins or so:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqs1Jl0J_Js&feature=PlayList&p=39CE122868FF29AE&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqs1Jl0J_Js&feature=PlayList&p=39CE122868FF29AE&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3
05/27/09 @ 21:38
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Nice work, northvancoveman. Just watching that video brought back some really bad feelings.
05/27/09 @ 23:00
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
Yes, BigSteve, that's the story I've heard about the beginnings of The Kinks. I love those banana shuffling stories that happen before a band breaks.
05/27/09 @ 23:01
Comment from: shawnkilroy [Member]
Rozz Williams started Christian Death in L.A. with Rikk Agnew of The Adolescents and D.I.(the richard hung himself band from the movie Suburbia) They put out an album, and toured the U.S. and Europe. In Europe, the played a few gigs with a band called Pompei 88, which was Valor Hand, Gitane DeMone, and David Glass.
At the end of the tour, everybody quit Christian Death, so Rozz Williams hired the guys from Pompei 88 as his new band. They proceeded to record their 2 best albums, Catastrophe Ballet, Ashes, and a live record from the subsequent tours with everybody writing songs.
Then Rozz Williams broke the band up. Only problem was, he was the only one who wanted to break up. Valor kept the name and the band. A few years later Rozz got the old L.A. lineup back together and for the next 10 years, there were 2 Christian Deaths.
That's some 2nd banana type shit right?
At the end of the tour, everybody quit Christian Death, so Rozz Williams hired the guys from Pompei 88 as his new band. They proceeded to record their 2 best albums, Catastrophe Ballet, Ashes, and a live record from the subsequent tours with everybody writing songs.
Then Rozz Williams broke the band up. Only problem was, he was the only one who wanted to break up. Valor kept the name and the band. A few years later Rozz got the old L.A. lineup back together and for the next 10 years, there were 2 Christian Deaths.
That's some 2nd banana type shit right?
05/28/09 @ 17:55
Comment from: cherguevarra [Member]
Mr. Mod. Another reshuffling was Duran Duran, in which Stephen Duffy was the original singer. He left to start the Lilac Time, Simon Le Bon joined and why the fuck do I know this shit?
05/28/09 @ 22:09
Comment from: Mr. Moderator [Member]
shawnkilroy and cherguevarra, that is indeed some 2nd banana shit!
05/28/09 @ 22:43
Comment from: cherguevarra [Member]
There were two Silos also. Walter once explained it to me, but I forget...
05/28/09 @ 23:18
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