I think I’ve determined a running theme among artists I like and admire on an intellectual level yet will never love: they’ve got no heart. I’m thinking specifically about Chuck Berry and The Ramones, but there are other toe-tapping, energetic rock artists I like and admire for their tunefulness and craftsmanship yet remain unmoved by on an emotional level. Another example might be Cheap Trick, although they have at least two songs that express identifiable human desires. Actually, The Ramones have a couple of songs expressing some identifiable human desires, but overall they’re a worthy example.
For purposes of exploring this discovery, let’s focus on Berry and The Ramones. Both artists are to be admired for their energy, their craft, their wit, their tunefulness, and the other guiding principles that kept them from entering a likely embarrassing “blooz” or “psych” phase. There’s more insight and understanding of the human condition in their songs than might be evident on the surface, but rarely do I find their music stimulating my understanding of human emotions.
The issue I have with these artists is a little different from Fogerty Syndrome, in which the artist has a chip on his or her shoulder for reasons known only to his- or herself. In the case of artists suffering from Fogerty Syndrome, the emotions resulting from the unidentified chip come through to the listener and offer emotional enlightenment and release for listeners. I don’t get that from Berry’s music or much of the music of The Ramones (“Sheena Is a Punk Rocker”, “Rockaway Beach”, and maybe two other songs excepted), and I’m not sure that you do either. That’s cool, right? There are plenty of other things to like about these emotionally “distant” artists, but I’ve put my finger on it: that’s what keeps me from fully embracing their music.
Zoiks, Mod. Assuming, as is questionable, that music must increase one’s understanding of human emotions, how do you find music that doesn’t. In the case of music that expresses the dimmest emotional awareness, as in, say, vintage Schoolly-D, there is often a font of other information. In Mr. D’s case, lessons on how to treat a woman either post-felatio, or when felatio has failed to occur. “Ah thew ‘er out da window an’ broke the bitch ahm.” Really? My pad and pencil are at the ready. I won’t linger over why felatio doesn’t pass spell check.
But the Ramones, in particular, offer a veritable sociology paper: “Queens, NY. Why Not?” Many of their songs are descriptive of Joey Ramone’s childish desires and world view. He is a sad, sad figure. Dee Dee was a tragic little fellow, though I admit that didn’t come through in his garbled count-offs so clearly. And Johnny. Dear lord, what an abysmally ugly man. Fearfully, viciously mean-spirited and small-minded. A walking pamphlet for public housing in Queens. Not a flamboyant, over played ugliness, like that Led Zeppelin manager guy, but a mum icon of retention.
Listen, view, learn, Mod. And once you decide on a criteria, it seems impossible not to find a lesson in the most arid landscape. Duchamp asked, “Can I create anything that is not art?” To test the theory, he did the bicycle wheel on the stool. His answer was, “Apparently not.”
I don’t know Mod, should you listen to “Memphis” again? The lyrics are really restrained, almost literary, and his voice is drained of it’s confidence. I’d heard it for years before I’d “heard” it, its a unique tune for him.
I guess its a personal thing, I feel wholly moved by the Ramones and Berry, which I’s never say about Crowded House.
If Johnny Ramone could read this post, even he’d have to laugh. But he wouldn’t. He’d just get maddah and maddah…
I agree with slocum and buskirk that the Ramones and Chuck Berry are working on an emotional level, just different ones than the norm. Seeing the Mod’s side of things, I think Berry’s vocal style is kind of flat and maybe puts some of that emotional distance in there. But there’s more going on in some of his lyrics than is immediately evident, at least more so than I used to credit him.
I agree with db that Memphis makes a good counter-example, but I see Mr. Mod’s point. It reminds me of our discussion of Prince, where we arrived at the conclusion that what kept him from being an artist of the first rank was the fact that his attitude towards sex seemed to be suffering from arrested development, which on its own might not be a deal-breaker, except that sexuality played such a huge role in his art.
Berry has often been praised for his depiction of teenage culture, and historically that’s certainly important, but I don’t think you can argue that his songwriting ever developed much beyond “Riding along in my automobile/My baby beside me at the wheel.”
The Ramones are a different story. A cartoon world that, as the general says, hides a lot of sadness.
I respectfully disagree w/you Mr. Mod on both counts. How can someone like Chuck Berry be so influential in rock music through his guitar licks, as well as through his songwriting, have no “heart”?
As for the Ramones, I feel that one of their main influences was the early 60s girl group pop & that Joey had a romantic sensibility about him. I can think of songs like “Oh Oh I Love You So”, “Danny Says”, “She’s The One”, “I Want You Around”, “I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend” & their cover of “Baby I Love You.”
I liked general slocum’s description of the Ramones, although I would title my paper, “Queens, NY, Why?”
General Slocum wrote:
Sorry, I should have specified that I prefer to gain emotional insights beyond those of which I outgrew when I was about 7 years old.
db wrote:
I like that song a lot. Between the beat and his vocals, you’re right, but see, you start with that “almost literary” point. Berry’s work is to be appreciated on a very cerebral level once you get past the killer rhythms. What am I learning about the human heart while listening to his music? I am open to the fact that I could be missing something.
BigSteve writes:
YES! It’s the “arrested development” aspect that’s probably at the heart of the matter for me, if you’ll excuse my pun. I could be way off on The Ramones. I did acknowledge that they’ve got at least 4 songs that speak to emotions beyond those of a sad 7-year-old–and no offense to sad 7-year-olds. I was one once.
Diskojoe wrote:
I would respectfully contend that Berry is so influential because of his guitar licks and songwriting, or his intellectual capabilities. Sure, he puts his “heart” into those areas, but does anyone find emotional rescue in his great tunes?
I’m going to abandon my calling The Ramones into this. I can see I’m getting nowhere with that. Let’s consider this, regarding Berry, however: Has anyone ever put a Chuck Berry tune on a mix tape meant to impress a desired sweetheart? I don’t want to reduce it to just this level, but please factor this question into what I’m trying to say.
Maybe Chuck was more emotionally involved in his video recording work.
Long distance information, give me Memphis, Tennessee
Help me find the party trying to get in touch with me
She could not leave her number, but I know who placed the call
‘Cause my uncle took the message and he wrote it on the wall
(G) / D – – – / / G – – – / – D7 – G – /
Help me, information, get in touch with my Marie
She’s the only one who’d phone me here from Memphis, Tennessee
Her home is on the south side, high up on a ridge
Just a half a mile from the Mississippi bridge
Help me, information, more than that I cannot add
Only that I miss her and all the fun we had
But we were pulled apart because her mom did not agree
And tore apart our happy home in Memphis, Tennessee
Last time I saw Marie she’s waving me good-bye
With hurry home drops on her cheek that trickled from her eye
Marie is only six years old, information please
Try to put me through to her in Memphis, Tennessee
– – – – – – –
At the song’s opening, Berry’s quieter delivery clues you in that there’s something deeper going on here, he is not just looking to dance with Carol. He’s pleading with the operator to find a phone number she’ll never be able to find, and he’s sure his Marie needs him. The details; the phone number written on the wall, the tear drops having their own character and finally the punchline, only hinted at in the earlier verses, that it is the daughter he lost in a separation that pains him so. All without a wasted word.
As for the rest of his catalog, if the joyousness of his vocals doesn’t grab you, or the insane genius of his stream-of-lyrics, you’d think maybe the endless inventiveness of his guitar playing would. For someone whose guitar-lick is the ultimate rock cliche, his solos are always wild, unpredictable and seemingly spontaneous. I’ve listened to these songs endlessly but I can never intuit where his solos are going next. Just his guitar sound makes me emotional.
RTH doesn’t feel Chuck Berry? I have no more illusions. Maybe every single thing is over-rated.
Maybe Berry was fluent enough in blues standards to stake out a slightly different territory for his own work. In that Hail Hail movie from 20 years ago or so, there was a scene where he sat and played some eloquent blues in a very heartfelt way. I think he more or less found his formula and stuck to it, when singing and writing singles.
Bless you, Mod, for being such an old man. What I think is great on an emotional level about Berry and The Ramones is that they do speak, in convincing, tightly detailed scenarios, about the emotions young people really were feeling in a particular time and place. Should we expect that those emotions would resonate with an old, uh, “mature” father man? Not anymore than we would expect the reverse: that is, to expect that young people would find the ambiguous emotional struggles of middle age in, say, a John Cheever story all that compelling. And of course they don’t, although I think you’d love him.
The problem is, as people change, what speaks to them emotionally also changes. At some point I think you’ll come to recognize that your Costello/XTC fetishes are similarly mired in your own place and time, the one, if you’ll remember, that was equal parts intensity, sincerity and irony because it was hard to tell the difference anymore. Which is, you know, 1976-84 in a nutshell.
I will grant you this much though: there’s a kind of story telling distance, an almost sociological approach in the Ramones and Berry that’s missing, say, in a teenage love band like The Undertones, who bring more Power and Glory of Rock to their bleating, driving scenarios. But oddly enough I find that sociological approach works better with me at this age, now that the idea of More Songs About Chocolate and Girls doesn’t have quite the same visceral thrill. There’s more of the “world as it was at the time” in the Ramones and Berry, more of the my-god-how-whiny teenager in The Undertones, who mainly I do like.
But while we’re at it, let me say this, and perhaps cause a firestorm that I’ll be too busy later today to be part of. One band who almost always (not always, but almost) feels emotionally distant to me: The Beatles. Especially when they’re trying to be at their most sincere. That doesn’t mean I don’t think they’re great, and admire they’re excellence. It just means that I rarely feel emotionally convinced by them. Just too damn clever by half.
This is me, ducking.
Oh yeah, I’ve put Berry’s “Havana Moon” and “Drifting Heart” on courtship mix tapes before.
I’ve gone on about Berry’s “Havana Moon” in the Hall before, but that’s another one that’s aimed squarely at the part of one’s heart that gets hurt. I can even excuse the lame-brained (but very fashionable at the time) faux-Caribbean patois in the following:
Me all alone
Jug of rum
Me stand and wait for the boat to come
Is lonely night is quiet the dark
The boat she late its 12 o clock
Me watches the tide easin in
Is low the moon and high the wind
Havana moon
Havana moon
Me all alone
Me open the rum
Is long the wait for the boat to come
American girl come back to me
Sail way across the sea
We dock in new york the buildings high
We find a home up in the sky
Havana moon…
Havana moon…
Me still alone me drinkin the rum
Begin to think that the boat no come
American girl she tell a lie
She say till then, but she mean goodbye
Havana moon…
Havana moon…
Me lay down alone, no good the rum
Me fall asleep and the boat she come
The girl she look till come the dawn
She weep and she cry
Return for home
The whistle blow me open my eyes
Bright the sun blue the sky
Me grab me shoes, me jump and me run
Me see the boat head for horizon
Havana moon is gone da rum
The boat she sail, me love she gone
Havana moon…
Mwall, yes, I’ve always liked the emotional details of John Cheever stories, since I first read him at 20 or so, when I was young enough, presumably, that I should have identified with the messages of The Ramones and Chuck Berry. Maybe my highly advanced emotional maturity puts me at a disadvantage, but some friends who know how much of a trouble-making baby I can be might argue otherwise. I’m glad you, like others, at least sense what I’m getting at. Finally, good for you for coming clean with a band that doesn’t resonate for you on an emotional level. I would never argue with another person’s emotional responses to music. That’s way too subjective, man.
So db, to get sensitive for a moment, you’re telling me Chuck’s Marie is a daughter from a failed relationship? I’d never considered that with the whole phone number on the bathroom wall line and Chuck’s personal story.
Havana Moon seems like an exercise to me.
But we have to watch mixing up ‘coming from the heart’ and ‘aiming at the heart’ and ‘working on the heart.’ Whether a song comes from the heart is mostly irrelevant, and focusing too much on that aspect of composition is what’s sometimes called the sincerity fallacy. Here at RTH we call it backstory, and I think we have some agreement that it makes no difference if the narrative in Memphis has anything to do with Berry’s life.
Whether something is aimed at the heart is a purely technical matter, and whether it works on your heart or anyone else’s will be largely personal, and possibly dependent on the listener’s backstory.
It’s not a phone number on the bathroom wall. Unless the phone is in the bathroom. And anyway the uncle took “the message” but did NOT write the phone number. If he had there would be no reason for the singer to be trying to get the number from the operator.
Steve:
With the approval of Rock Town Hall, I’d like to invite you to write the “Sincerity Fallacy” glossary term for the RTH Glossary. I feel like it’s a must.
Agreed, Mwall. BigSteve, whenever you’ve got the time, go for it!
Alexmagic, I’m holding you to Rhythm Beard. When you’ve got the time, of course…
dbuskirk, I am with ya on Chuck Berry. Maybe his lyrics just have too far to travel through time to be as well regarded as I think they should be. But I remember the first time one of my kids “got” No Particular Place to Go, and he cracked up. I had the feeling that either he or one of his friends had an early experience with a bra strap and he totally understood Chuck’s frustration with that seatbelt. I think if I were a kid in the fifties, Chuck would have really understood me.
The Ramones I never really saw as much more than party music. I heard them on the Classic Rock station a few weeks ago (way to catch up and rewrite history guys), and I think they’re like AC/DC to me. I understand why everyone likes them, but why does anyone love them? there just isn’t enough there for me. But Chuck Berry has it all.
Including videos so creepy they’re kinda funny.
Ok here’s a draft–
Sincerity fallacy: The mistaken belief that the quality of a song (or of any literary or artistic work) can be measured by the extent to which it sincerely reflects the beliefs, emotions, or experiences of its creator. This is not to say that a ‘sincere’ song is necessarily a bad song, merely that its sincerity is not a useful tool in judging its merit.
BogSteve, good start —
But I think you need an addendum that explains the intersection between “backstory” and the Sincerity Fallacy. For my money, one of the biggest traps rock appreciators fall into is placing undue importance on the backstory. Irrelevant!
I think BigSteve’s “experiences” not only captures but goes beyond “backstory.” Mission accomplished.
mwall,
Yeah, the supposed masterpiece of the Beatles, Sgt. Pepper’s, is, I find, very emotionally distant.
In “Day in the Life,” I hear Lennon’s “I’d love to turn you on” as a self-conscious attempt to bridge this distance, but ultimately failing to do so.
Steve, that’s a good start, but remember, this is Rock Town Hall. At this point, your description is entirely too sincere and too focused merely on being accurate.
Please add a bit of condescension, innuendo, irony, and veiled insult, as well as finding a video which documents the phenomenon in its most nakedly embarrassing form, then resubmit. We need this definition to be at one with the tone of the glossary.
I had forgotten that glossary consisted of a collection of full-blown threads. Maybe tonight when I get home I can flesh it out. Working on it during the VP debate might help me out. That Gov. Palin doesn’t seem to know anything about important national issues, but I really relate to her because she seems so sincere.
And she’s hot! Another oft-over-emphasized element of the rock and roll experience. Be honest, how many of you give the VU a pass because of their turtlenecks and sunglasses?
Hrrundi, what the hell are you talking about regarding a “pass” for the VU because of their great collective Look? The band’s got a ton of great music. You really need to take some time, craft a well-considered post that explores your issues with this band, and let us set you straight. Again. Would you like me to handpick 10 VU songs for your analysis and commentary? Maybe we could work with you as a loving community.
Hrrundi, first, I want to reassure you that I’m not backing the VU for the sake of some hipster ideology. I’m down with you on ACDC (Bon Scott-era, anyway), ZZ Top and Prince.
That said, I’m asking you to reconsider your position on the Velvet Underground for your own good. You’re cheating yourself out of some great stuff.
Also, haven’t you been threatening to present a formal indictment of the Velvet Underground for a number of years now? Or am I thinking of someone else? If so, please pull it together post haste so that we can get to the bottom of this.
Mod, please let me review those 10 songs before you send them to Hrrundi. It might not be too late to save him but we’ll need to act quickly and carefully here.
Let’s talk about this more tomorrow, cdm. It’s time we put Hrrundi’s feet to the fire.
I know you’ve already backed off of this, but I genuinely feel for you if you truly find no heart in “I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend.”
If you guys want me to deliver the one-two, V.U. knockout punch, you need to put a well-trained, disciplined, quick and powerful opponent in the ring — and that means you need to do some work. I want to see some consensus between the residents of the Hall on exactly who I’m facing in the ring. I want seven songs — decided on collectively, after extensive sparring, elimination rounds and thoughtful consideration — that both pass muster on quality *and* represent VU’s total output accurately. No more lazy, flabby, Randall “Tex” Cobbs. No more whiny, shin-kicking Antonio Inokis. You guys put some work in, and I’ll do the same.
Ok, Hurrundi, to get the ball rolling, here’s my 7 favorite VU songs:
1. I Heard Her Call My Name
2. I Found A Reason
3. Jesus
4. There She Goes Again
5. I’m Set Free
6. Sweet Jane
7. I Can’t Stand It Any More
I think Waiting for the Man ought to be on there. And All Tomorrow’s Parties. And Rock & Roll. Man, just seven is going to be hard.
1. Sunday Morning
2. Waiting for the Man
3. I Heard Her Call My Name
4. Candy Says
5. What Goes On
6. New Age
7. Sweet Jane
Admit it Hrrundi, you always LOVED to sing along with Nico on Femme Fatale.
HVB thinks he can pit Townsperson against Townsperson as we do the heavy lifting to call him to the carpet on his long-promised, never-delivered rant against the VU! We’re too strong for that. Although we’re sure to disagree on a Top 7, as we debate whether to go with “favorites” or “best” VU songs, I’m confident that we’ll choose the right 7 VU songs for Hrrundi to dis. We know we could save ourselves a lot of time and heartache by just calling the guy out for being bitter that Nico never blew him in an elevator, but we’re bigger than that, or should I say we’re too concerned with the pettiness and futility of the challenge ahead. Let’s work together, VU-loving Townspeople, to create the right 7 tracks for this man! I’ll suggest my 7 in a bit. Let me think about it.
Damn straight, BigSteve! And diskojoe, much as I appreciate your willingness to step into the ring early to take your lumps, remember: I need an opponent who kicks ass *and* accurately reflects the breadth of the VU ouvre. You may have to pick some of the “best of the worst,” too. Give me some of their heroin-fueled noise-fests, and at least one of those simple, sweet two-chorders that Lou wrote over coffee in his Chelsea apartment, after waking up next to a dude in leather shorts.
Mod, do the right thing: move this to the main stage!
Femme Fatale
Sunday Morning
Who Loves The Sun
Pale Blue Eyes
What Goes On
I’m Wating For The Man
Sweet Jane
If that’s so, then you need a Mo song like After Hours.
I’d keep these:
Jesus
There She Goes Again
Sweet Jane
I Can’t Stand It Any More
I would lose the following:
I Found A Reason
I’m Set Free
I Heard Her Call My Name
(I like these songs but feel that others would be more appropriate for this intervention.)
I would add:
What Goes On
Run Run Run
I would consider one of the following:
Venus in Furs
I’ll Be Your Mirror
Rock and Roll
Here She Comes Now
All Tomorrows Parties
Finally, in a make it or break it move, I would suggest either the Gift or Sister Ray. This is the musical equivalent to a late night move that my friend used have which he called “the Big Guy.” It has a high probability of failure, but when it doesn’t fail, it is an unmitigated success.
I think these sort of interventions could be helpful for others as well. Next we could focus on db’s aversion to the Band.
Don’t tell us how to conduct our planning session, HVB! We’ll go Main Stage when the time is right. For now, we appreciated the privacy afforded by this thread. Also, my man, don’t tell us what kind of mix you require. I’m dedicated to seeing that you get no turds to shoot down, and I know there are some songs that VU fans, myself included, love that are ripe for the shooting!
hvb wrote:
I am shocked and disappointed that you would force me to invoke a backstory alert so early in this game.
You know me, I’m a believer in taking on challenges with the likes of Hrrundi by putting an artist’s objectively best material forward. As much as I subjectively love “I’m Set Free” or “I Heard Her Call My Name”, I figure I’ve got less of a chance of proving another Townsperson WRONG with those songs because there are too many objective flaws in them. If I can shoot down any of these songs I love, an intelligent Townsman like Hrrundi will see their holes as well. Shouldn’t we hit him up with some Best of… worthy material, some Legacy Recordings?
If you agree, then all those “Sweet Sally Lou” numbers need to go. Granted, I don’t like most of those tracks, but they’re clearly filler material, whether we dig one of them or not. In this category I’ll include “Run, Run, Run”, the band’s ode to Canned Heat. Few dig the sound of Canned Heat’s fatback boogie more than I do, but those songs are sitting ducks for Hrrundi.
To preare a WINNING slate of songs, I also suggest we scrap anything involving Nico. I would agree that “All Tomorrow’s Parties” is a stone-cold WINNER in most competitions, but Hrrundi’s proven to be unsympathetic to women singers and hi-falutin’, artsy, European drug addicts.
The case of the Mo Tucker-sung songs is another matter. First of all, she’s an underdog. Also, no offense, but she’s not a woman anyone I’ve ever met desires. In other words, Mo’s no threat to Hrrundi’s Art Chick-decimated ego. Although I can personally do without “After Hours”, it may be worth throwing into this particular battle. This is a sign that I care more about the team than my personal interests.
Any of the long, improvised, “FU” numbers we might be tempted to throw in the ring, such as “Sister Ray”, may fail simply on grounds that the guitarists don’t meet Hrrundi’s criteria for proper TONE. However, I’d argue that “Heroin” may be worth considering for its Legacy-added value. The jamming sections are consistent with and supportive of the song’s themes, so they can be considered as serving a rational purpose. Also, I know that Hrrundi’s mind-expanding preferences lean exclusively toward brews and other spirits. He’ll be sure to bum out over the VU’s drug-fueled rock ‘n roll. Although I’m by no means a proponent of heroin use, I’ll be prepared to characterize his objections to drugs while fully supporting the rock ‘n roll cliche of alcohol consumption as “square” and hypocritical, mannnnnnn.
So far I’m suggesting the following songs:
“After Hours”
“Heroin”
We’ve also got to include two stone-cold rock ‘n roll classics:
“Rock ‘n Roll”
“Sweet Jane”
We know Hrrundi’s a spiritual man and an appreciator of simple beauty, so let’s make sure to include two songs that may hit on those passions:
“Jesus”
“Pale Blue Eyes”
I can be convinced that “Pale Blue Eyes” won’t cut it for Hrrundi because it might get into that Art Chick-decimated ego territory. There may also be problems with Sterling Morrison’s guitar TONE. I’d steer clear of “Candy Says” and “New Age” for Art Chick biases as well.
I’m totally behind “I’m Waiting for the Man”. If Hrrundi objects to this one, we’ll have ample opportunity to basically call him a pussy. That’s always an effective technique for convincing someone that they’re WRONG about their passionate, long-held beliefs.
As much as any VU fan loves “What Goes On”, don’t you think that’s going to be dismissed as some form of hippie jamming?
Mockcarr suggested “Who Loves the Sun”, which may work because it sounds so unlike a VU song. It’s the one VU song that’s downright WHITE, and we know the man’s got a soft spot for White Music:)
After great consideration, I propose the following:
“After Hours”
“Heroin”
“Rock ‘n Roll”
“Sweet Jane”
“Jesus”
“I’m Waiting for the Man”
“Who Loves the Sun”
These are not necessarily the 7 VU songs I’d put on for a go-for-broke mix CD, but I think they best play into HVB’s weaknesses.
I agree with a lot of Mr. Mod’s points and choices. However, I feel he is missing one key element of the Velvets, one that I think HVB might be able to appreciate. The reason I chose “Sunday Morning,” “Candy Says,” and “New Age” was for Lou’s oft-unheralded ability to get inside a character and write with sympathy. On these songs, he did this nearly as well as the contemporaneous Ray Davies. That Lou wrote about seedier characters is essentially irrelevant. I’d probably put one of these songs in the place of “Jesus,” which is a fine song, but not one that I think will really appeal to or highlight anything for HVB.
Oats wrote:
What gives you the notion that hard-hearted Hrrundi cares about getting inside a character and having sympathy or empathy for that character? Is this a characteristic in the music of ZZ Top, Prince, and ELO, aka the Holy Trinity of Rock?
Also, when Townsman KingEd wrote up that Glen Campbell album a while back, wasn’t it Hrrundi who proclaimed “Jesus” to be the only VU song he liked? We’ll have to go back and check the records…
Mr. Mod, you put “After Hours” on your list, and you’re telling me we need to appeal to Hrrundi’s hard-hearted, cock-rocking side? HVB’s deep appreciation for VGPS-era Kinks is well-documented (on the old RTH anyway). I think one of the three songs I mentioned can tap into that appreciation.
I don’t know about tailoring the selection to exploit hvb’s weaknesses. That sounds too much like Herm “You PLAY to WIN the GAME” Edwards, and look at his record. I think when you’ve got a strong team, you play your game. You go with your best. So I’d favor a more representative collection. I don’t see the point in trying to get hvb to like a handful of songs he’s likely to like.
This gives me an opportunity to repeat my favorite baseball postseason story, even though I don’t recall the actors. Some player (it may have been Dave Parker?) was asked before the World Series whether he wasn’t happy that the opposing team’s best pitcher was out with an injury. He responded something like “No, man! This is the World Series, and if you want to claim to be the best you have to be ready to beat the best.” I always thought that was totally cool, and that’s the way I feel about this exercise. This is the Velvet Underground, not Herman’s Hermits. We should go with the best we’ve got.
I like the spirit you’re displaying here as we prepare to bring down HVB and his silly VU bias once and for all. I’m more in agreement with you in particular, BigSteve, than you might think. Please note, for me this is not so much my wanting to pick songs he might like but pick songs he’ll have to work harder to dismiss. I want him to give it his best while he’s dismissing the 7 songs we select, not just all those fears over hippies, art chicks, and guys in leather shorts.
I’m a bit busy today, but just wanted to weigh in to say: I appreciate the work you guys are putting into this upcoming battle. The fact that you’re arguing protein shakes vs. old-fashioned, Rocky Balboa raw egg cocktails is a good thing.
But here’s a tip only Oats will understand: I *really* like about half of that CD you sent me — the more overtly poppy stuff. That material is wonderful. The other half, given over to self-conscious, arty Leonard Cohen-meets-Gibert and Sullivan stuff, is downright painful. You may find that insight useful.
Skipping rope and pounding sides of beef in the walk-in freezer,
HVB
Has anyone ever put a Chuck Berry tune on a mix tape meant to impress a desired sweetheart?
I’d totatlly put Havana Moon on a comp. It evokes a wonderful dreamy mood, and it hasn’t been quite as trampled to death by decades of over-saturation. But I concur that that tune is a bit of an outlier, an exception that proves the rule.
Fritz wrote:
One of the biggest traps rock appreciators fall into is placing undue importance on the backstory. Irrelevant!
Unless it’s the listener’s own experience (backstory), which can add depth to their listening experience.
Mod, please let me review those 10 songs before you send them to Hrrundi. It might not be too late to save him but we’ll need to act quickly and carefully here.
Is this the notorious Hrrundi bailout that some in RTH are trying to railroad through here? My constituents have been flooding the phone lines in uproar.
I wrote:
One of the biggest traps rock appreciators fall into is placing undue importance on the backstory. Irrelevant!
Tvox wrote:
Unless it’s the listener’s own experience (backstory), which can add depth to their listening experience.
I agree, and explain:
Yes, totally. I was warning against the tendency to say things like: “Neil Young’s ‘Tonight’s the Night’ i so great because he wrote it in a state of near-catatonic depression after the overdose of his roadie and friend whatshisname blahblahblah…” The album may be great, but that’s not why!
A new list to consider, taking into account statements by HVB, Mr. Mod, etc.
“Heroin”
“Rock ‘n Roll”
“Sweet Jane”
“Candy Says”
“I’m Waiting for the Man”
“Beginning to See the Light”
“I Heard Her Call My Name”
Yes, I see Big Steve’s point, but I think that’s the kooky accent, which gets an inexplicable free pass from me, too. I did indeed put this on tapes for my now wife, so I guess it worked. To me, its the arrangement and sparseness that work it. It makes it moot whether the spirit is that of the sad-sack tale of the narrator, or of the toned-down Berry, who adds the blue feel of his faux patois to the misty moonlight vibe. Any which way, while Havana Moon isn’t a phrase in pop culture at large, it is one in my mind. A phrase denoting I-know-not-what. But something with heart.
Oats, this is a solid list that I could live with, but please explain the rationale behind “Beginning to See the Light”. For me, that’s second to “Lonesome Cowboy Bill” in the meager “Sweet Cindy Lou” filler sweepstakes. How will this challenge Hrrundi or work toward meeting the various objectives ahead of us?
Also, Mod, what about “Train Round the Bend” for sheer tone? It’s got a TVC15 groove, especially the remix on the Loaded double-disc set. I always loved that tremolo guitar with the drums. Very rock and roll, and on many more mixes of mine than “Rock and Roll,” which I never really warmed to, though they’ve let me keep my passport while saying so.
And I’m with Oats on “Beginning to See the Light”, which in my opinion is the VU song most deserving of being on a Greatest Rock Songs Ever comp that doesn’t give VU’s weaknesses a blind eye.
A decent list from Oats, but I have to veto Beginning to See the Light. While I’ve warmed to it over the years a bit, it is really not top tier stuff. Also, any list needs to include There She Goes Again.
What about “I’m Set Free”? That song packs a powerful emotional punch.
Hmm, I did not anticipate a “Beginning to See the Light” controversy. I think it’s poppier than the “Sweet Sally Lou” workouts that Mr. Mod is mostly correct in disdaining. I like the goofy, lyrical non-sequiters that counter Lou’s sourpuss reputation. I’m not married to it, though, if someone wants to put another song in its place.
I LOVE “I’m Set Free”, but it seems to be one for true lovers of the band, no?
How about “Some Kinda Love” for that final slot? That’s a COOL song that doesn’t sound like anything else they’ve done yet sounds completely like them.
I love “There She Goes” but isn’t it a rickety version of just about any cool 1966 song, like a rare coherent pop song by Love?
Good “TVC15” comparison from General Slocum on “Train Round the Bend”, but isn’t that just more creatively produced filler? Don’t get me wrong, I dig that piece of filler.
Well, yeah, but we should take into account that VU wasn’t really a greatest hits band were they? The strength of their music is its innovation, intensity, and artistic vision, not whether it has a pop catchiness, no? To act otherwise is to misrepresent the band to its detractor(s). Which would then cheapen the victory.
I’m not saying we should include the room-clearers; although that was one side of the band, it was not the best. What I am saying, though, is (following the recommendations of BigSteve) present the songs that we think best represents who VU were and why we hold them in high esteem.
There is a song with that same There She Goes Again riff, but damned if I can remember what it was.
Mockcarr, the intro to “There She Goes Again” is a lift from Marvin Gaye’s “Hitch Hike”.
Dr. John, I hear you. The more I think about this the more I think we need to craft a full-blown intervention for our friend. Maybe we ignore his 7-song limit and just load up his iPod with nothing but VU.
You’ve got seven songs to try and convince me — with honesty — that the VU don’t suck. Seven songs. Good ones, that also represent the stylistic breadth of the VU’s output. I know the band recorded some utter shit; you don’t have to share those. Give me the winners. But don’t overlook entire styles because you think I might not like ’em. A representative sampler of the band’s best, in seven songs. Don’t tell me you couldn’t do that. I could do it easily for ZZ Top, ELO or Prince!
Sorry, but the intervenee does not set the groundrules for the intervention.
Well, hey, feel free to share your list of the seven best Prince songs. I always feel lost trying to sort through his immense back catalog and stylistic changes.
Or, if you’re thinking of a more recent song that lifts the same riff, it would be Edwyn Collins’ “Magic Piper of Love.”
Just me:
Sunday Morning
All Tomorrow’s Parties
I Heard Her Call My Name
Candy Says
What Goes On
Pale Blue Eyes
Who Loves The Sun
cdm, as someone who has always worn his teeth in his hand so he could mess the hair of the night, I have to say I cannot imagine being someone who doesn’t get that song. Lou at his best.
And Mod, I know that “Train Round the Bend” isn’t great songcraft for you to dig your Attractions-centered pop song-craft teeth into. But that groove goes off on its own, leaving no need for any further lyrical content or context for this listener.
Oh, God. “Pale Blue Eyes.” That song is a total turd — the beret-wearing rock-and-roll hipster equivalent of “I gave my love a cherry… that had no stoooone…”
Come on, seriously. I may need to hear most of these other suggestions, but *that* one, I know, and it’s a full-on, corn-studded, burrito-powered, bowl-staining howler of an ass-blast. Except it’s more fey and wimpy than that.
You all know the song “Julia,” by the Fab Foursome. *That*’s the song “Pale Blue Eyes wishes it could be, and just isn’t. Like, at all. It’s the song that couldn’t carry “Havana Moon”‘s jock. Please.
Do better.
Hey Steve:
Once you get that Sincerity Fallacy post worked up, I think you should also find a Sincerity Fallacy icon, like the Cop Out one that appears around here sometimes, and drop it on people here every time the Sincerity Fallacy comes out. We could also use one for Backstory Alert.
Hey hr. You might be able to pinch 7 great ZZ songs out. But you’ll have nothing left to wipe with.
Face.
HVB, you’re gonna have to do better than that when the music starts. Stay tuned. I should be able to gather some intervention materials this weekend. Our man, here, is going to have to come clean, though, not just make corn-studded turd references. Hrrundi, can you fast for the next 24 hours?
I swear I’m going to work on the sincerity thing this weekend. But I found this totally by accident:
http://www.chicagogsb.edu/capideas/may08/
I’m sure it’s copyrighted, but I think it makes an interesting backstory icon.
Can’t someone create some sort of spreadsheet and pick the songs that turned up on the most peoples lists so far? Kind of like how the RTH top 5 founding fathers of rock were selected?
I’m no Prince aficionado but I’d vote for:
When You Were Mine
I Could Never Take the Place of Your Man
Little Red Corvette
Kiss
Sexy MF
Purple Rain
Thieves in the Temple
For ZZ Top I’m going to go with Beer Drinkers and Hell Raisers. I know I’m supposed to come up with 6 others, but that’s all that I really need.
Funny stuff, by the way, Sammy.
Mod, I promise that once you guys get your shit together and deliver a thoughtful, accurate, seven-song collection of VU material for me to contemplate, the words “corn-studded,” “fly-blown,” “Bowl-staining” and “Turd” will vanish from my vocabulary.
HVB
Mod, I promise that once you guys get your shit together and deliver a thoughtful, accurate, seven-song collection of VU material for me to contemplate,
O, come now, Hrrundivie, your only response will be to question why the rest of us like this material. I know it, you know it, and the only reason we still log on is because Mr. Mod is willing to believe he doesn’t know it. Why would there be a thread to convince Señor ZZ Prince of any musical point of view? I posit that it is only because your intransigence allows Mod to soapbox on a topic that would otherwise find no useful opposition here.
I think you need to get a White Light/White Heat representative on there. Hrundi has previously indicated a fondness for Here Shee Comes Now, but picking out the things he’s already claimed to like seems pointless. I Heard Her Call My Name, however is a great representative of a skronkfest that he asked us to include. I’m assuming that if he asked for one, he’s positing the theory that he might appreciate such a beast, despite his historical disdain for such stuff. I Heard Her Call My Name packs quite a wallop, concise and unexpected, opening seemingly in midstream and rushing to that cracked solo. I understand why Mr. Mod might feel that it’s it’s like stocking the barrel with fish for HB to blow away, but if he’s willing to listen without prejudice to a real noise explosion, I think we should give him one.
And everyone should remember we will have as difficult a task as hvb. Explaining why you like something can be as hard as explaining why something sucks. Sincerity may not be an issue, bu I have a feeling hvb is not going to buy “influential” or “original” as talking points.
BigSteve: it may frighten you to hear this, but I love you, maaaaan. Your steadfastness to your principles, sense of fairness and all that rot is much appreciated at times like this.
And you’re right: “influential” and “original” are out of bounds here. However: I am very much interested in experiential reasons why folks might like this band — which sort of teeters into a legitimate form of backstory/sincerity/originality/influence-mongering. In my book, it’s okay to tell the world why VU totally changed *your* world view, and that this is why you like them. Make sense?
I look forward to the challenge you’ve set before us,
HVB
Before I heard VU as a kid, I had gotten to the point where rock to me had a kind of limited musical vocabulary. All I heard on the radio was basically the same thing–a formula of 4/4 beats, verse/chorus structures, pentatonic guitar solos.
After hearing “Heroin,” I realized there was a whole new rock universe to explore: where noise and repetition was a compositional tool, dynamics could be as extreme as you wanted, lyrics could be as raw as the music.
And so, knowing that this stuff was made in the late 60s, and how ahead of its time it was, I got excited about rock again. I started checking out bands that didn’t follow the formula, some influenced by VU, some not, eventually leading me into punk rock and elsewhere.
VU was the one band that forever changed for me what rock was and could be.
I think I just liked all that Velvet Underground stuff because it was all really memorable and catchy as hell. It not even like I listened to those albums all that much (‘cept maybe the third one) but I still know how every single song goes.