Aside from obvious outdated or never-cool production trends, such as the 1980s-era “big drum sound” and today’s Auto-Tuned vocals on pop records most of us wouldn’t be caught dead listening to without a tweener daughter or son in the car with us, too much of what instrument in a mix severely jeopardizes your enjoyment of a recording? Please feel free to be specific and overly picky. My intent is to learn what bugs you when listening to forms of music that you typically like. Please see if you can avoid blanket dismissals regarding particular instruments, such as “Even a single note of flute!” I’m curious to hear about your sense of taste and balance regarding the mix of instruments you are typically comfortable hearing in the music you like.
Also, it goes without saying that the answer It depends will be greeted by some variation of this:
I look forward to discussing these mixing pet peeves.
Vibes or xylophone mixed low can really make a rock record pop like on Penetration from Raw Power, or Shore Leave or Swordfishtrombones from Tom Waits’ album of the same name.
However, mixed in the forefront, like on Tortoise or Man Man records, they gag me.
Same thing with Fender Rhodes, as part of an ensemble I love the textures they provide. Local hero, Gregg Foreman’s work on Cat Power’s jukebox comes to mind. However, in a Paul Simon or Billy Joel live in central park type setting, that same instrument gives me the willies.
Mr Mod – is this going to be another excuse for you to rag on the high hat?
I’ll go very specific on this, but it’s not a cop out. Early Springsteen always had the sax and keyboards mixed too high. That turned me off to him early, and I’ve since been reluctant to ever open my hungry heart to him. I generally like sax and keyboards.
andyr, would you care to answer the question? 🙂 I’m not a big fan of hi-hats, but where they sit in the mix doesn’t bug me. What does bug me is when the bass is too low and I can’t feel it rattle in my chest. I’m sure this doesn’t go for all music, but for rocking music I want to feel the bass. I’m also disappointed whenever an artist uses a cool overdubbed instrument and then doesn’t mix it loud enough to have an effect. I like hearing the device of an obvious overdub, be it a screaming guitar lead, a horn section, or a sitar. I’m one of the few people who think the solos in The VU’s “I Heard Her Call My Name” are NOT [corrected – thanks, geo] too loud.
I love horns — and particularly saxes — when played in a horn section. But let any of those sax players out of their holding pen to play a solo, or even a melody line, and I lunge for the volume knob. I can’t handle solo sax in the jazz context, either.
Was that comment about “I Heard Her Call My Name” a typo. Doesn’t seem to follow from the previous statement.
While I know Jaco Pastorious is a gifted bassist, I think his reverbed-out,oooshy sound really detracts from the physical punch of the sound even when up in the mix. Worse yet, it was generally adopted as the bass sound for other fretless players, for example Fernando Saunders. I like the fretless a lot when it does have more presence, for example Danko on Rock of Ages and the guy from Trip Shakespeare and Semisonic.
Bass that loosens tooth fillings
I used to say harpsichord, until I heard some fantastic Divine Comedy songs, like “Songs of Love” and “Your Daddy’s Car” that are totally dominated by harpsichord, sometimes two of them, and make it work.
This probably too easy of a target, but:
Flute!
If’n it’s got flute, I’m out.
Orchestra isn’t really an instrument, but I think it’s very hard to blend the sound of an orchestra with a rock band. Not many people can do it right.
To state the obvious, and to risk the charge of a cop out, too much of any instrument in a mix severely jeopardizes my enjoyment of a recording.
Except maybe guitars. And bass. And drums.
Sorry.
Did not see the fine print about the flute. And to my chagrin, I jus’ listened to a track by Gong that used a flute quite nicely.
How’s about soprano sax????? If’n I never have to hear one of those again, it will be too soon.
Sitar, definitely sitar.
Sitar is a good one. And the Lamont Dozier track reminds me of another one — harp.
And almost always chimes = cheese.
I’m generally not opposed to the saxaphone but … when George Thorogood brought that sax guy into the band about the time of Bad to the Bone, I COULD NOT take it (and still can’t). Way overused sax and if I ever do find myself listening to the Delaware Destroyers, you can bet it’s the original trio without any horns.
It really bugs me that he brought that dude into the band. Horrible sound.
You wouldn’t think that it took a shark for Thorogood to jump but you hit the shark on the head, sonny! I’ve defended George in these hallowed halls in the past, but I stop far short of his work with the sax.
Mod, so many of my peeves about this are exemplified in one genre. And the two you point out top the list. Hi hat, and anemic bass. I say Motown! It’s all tambourine. The book on this will have a tambourine chapter. More live recordings have been ruined by an idiot who doesn’t understand how loud a tambourine is, and thinks that, “well, if it’s the instrument usually tossed to the cheesecake girl to highlight her outfit, then surely it can do no harm.” And bass without bass is, what? Like taking a shower with the, uhm, water turned off? Something?
hrrundivbakshi wrote: “I can’t handle solo sax in the jazz context, either.”
Say what? Is this to be read as: “I don’t like jazz”?
If so, fine. Otherwise, it makes no sense. Coleman Hawkins, Charlie Parker, Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane, Wayne Shorter–guys, we’re putting you in a horn section, ok? No solos. Thanks.
This would be not so much taking a shower with the water off as taking a shower with the water on and holding an umbrella over your head.
Having said all of this, sax in a rock format is very, very often terrible. I think George Thorogood sucks plenty with or without the lame sax, but the lame sax does add an element of suckiness, to be sure. I love Van Morrison to death (well, not literally) but he should not ever play the sax where someone is running tape. Sometimes Clarence Clemons’ playing works in a complementary fashion but often it is just bluster and annoying. The problem is that rock use of the sax is usually either Thorogoodian bombast or a lame attempt to cop some jazz cred.
Misterioso: my issue is a simple one — I just don’t like the sound of a honking, razzing, skronking, blatting saxophone. It is unpleasant to my ears. Doesn’t matter who plays it, my endurance for that noise (and I mean that literally) is about a minute. Then my ears start to hurt. (I don’t mean that literally.) I can manage a hall pass for “softer” sax stylists like Stan Getz or Lester Young, but most post-bop and rock soloists give me a pain.
One of my best friends is a mean sax player. I adore the guy, but his solo playing style is *all* skronk and blat and razz and howl and looka me and… ugh.
Forget the “lead” guitar — the most egocentric instrument in the world is the tenor sax. Maybe that’s one of the things I have against it.
Yes! Pretty much can’t stand Clemmons, and Marsalis drives me nuts when he tries to do Rawk, but I love Pink Floyd’s use of sax & enjoyed quite a bit of Morphine’s output.
Sooooo, jus’ as often as it’s terrible in a R-N-R context, it can also be great? Like a 50/50 kinda thang?
Ooooooooo, and Andy McKay is GOD!
hrrundivbakshi, I see. Sort of. It seems to me the act of soloing can pretty much be construed as egocentric whether it is on guitar, sax, or comb and paper. I do understand the drawing of lines–I feel the same way about almost all post-Bitches Brew jazz as you seem to feel about post-bop, and I cannot wrap my head around the late Coltrane recordings. But, geez, Rollins’ recordings from the 50s, for instance? Pure joy.
Oh, I can totally appreciate the wonderfulness of Rollins or Bird or ‘Trane, etc. — it’s just — well, it’s really a perfect answer to Mod’s question: *too much* of it makes it very unpleasant. And for me, “too much” isn’t very much at all.
To be clear, I can:
a.) listen to a whole album of a lyrical player like Getz
b.) listen to three or four tracks of a melody-based harmonic innovator like Bird
c.) listen to one sub-three-minute solo by a great, purposely atonal player like Oliver Lake
d.) endure about 45 seconds of cheeseball “jazzy” sax playing by the likes of David Sanborn or Walter Brecker
e.) grit my teeth through 10-15 seconds of Clarence Clemons or that dude from Thorogood’s band
Hope that’s helpful.
Clear enough. I am, even as we speak, listening to Stan Getz with Cal Tjader (1958). Highly recommended.
I wonder if somebody’s going to say “not an instrument,” but for me: backing vocals. Some of those three girl teams, or variations. When done right, great. Too often though, it seems like a couple of people show up mid-song, shout something irrelevant, then either leave (making their moment even more irrelevant) or hang around like an unwanted guest at a party.
Hrrundi, I’m not going to jump on your case about not liking the sound of the sax. That’s fine by me. However, I want to clarify something you wrote:
Before your jazz manhood was questioned regarding your opinion, your answer was on track: you avoided the blanket statement regarding an instrument, as I warned against with my flute example, and specified that your beef is with the sax straying from a section. Good answer, in terms of my asking what’s too much in the context of the mix of music you usually like.
Unfortunately, some Townsmen tried to drag you into the flute thing. Stay free of that, my man. Take your blows like the man you are.