I’ve got to run to an all-day meeting, but I’d like to thank sammy for re-opening the discussion on Prock. I’m reminded, however, of how much work we have yet to do. Hopefully I’ll get time to dig in on this tonight.
I think the quest for the meaning of Prock has gotten skewed by this concentration on Fripp. It’s really shooting procks in a barrell, isn’t it? What about Steely Dan and those forty takes of guitar solo, and hectoring their performers into bland submission?
Or what about quasi-freedom spokespersons like Henry Rollins, who’s type-A tendencies have him providing tiny simulacra of abandon, until it looks very like the real thing, as in a rotoscope image?
Zappa has been covered before, too, though in his early days he had the smarts or good luck to ctually give his player free reign within a prock framework.
that song is a fucking nightmare of safe mediocrity.
prock music as it’s been conceived here in these hallowed halls, is music with an obsessive bent, like what we’re seeing here.
however, prock ALSO has a mincing, overly informed, neurotic, nearly tragicomic infatuation with worshipping but, heaven forbid, not replicating past musical forms and ideas.
while this ACT may have a relationship to a musical heritage by mere dint of the presence of fripp and a chapman stick, this hardly amounts to a fixation of the type we’ve come to identify in our discussions of prock. the music itself doesn’t really have much in the way of prockishness.
sammy, you chose this video for a discussion of prock. i’m curious to hear why. bring it, bub.
Hvb, if we’re going to make any progress with these definitions, you’re going to have to use words. Explain in what way a Chapman Stick is obviously (to you) Kentonite rather than prock. I think this was my problem with your methodology in the recent Winner/Loser rock symposium. Pointing to something as a great example of a particular principle may seem like a good idea, but I just don’t think it gets us any closer to a definition, especially when the concepts are as slippery as these.
So come on, you’re an articulate guy. If these concepts could be defined by examples, we’d be home by now.
don’t confuse “prock” with “prog”. the way it’s being used in this thread makes it seem like “prock” means “prog, but only lamer” or something.
the word “prock” came out of the use of the word Proctomusicology: music up its own ass about its musicological means of creating music. see my comments above.
there’s always a potential for “prog” to be “prock”. but “prock” isn’t limited to that genre.
remember hvb’s japanese rocker. he was discussed in terms of “prock”, but has little to do with prog or jazz.
saturn, you’re right on all counts. So then there are good and bad forms of prock?
I’m still not ready, however, to call the video prock. There is a kind of un-self awareness (that is, you feel like yelling, My word, don’t you guys know how idiotic you look!)that seems un-prock.
I appreciate Saturn’s clarification too. And I also don’t see much that’s prock about the song–it’s more the choice of instruments. Taking a weird instrument to play something that didn’t really need those instruments to be played is definitely a prock impulse.
I like this song, but them I was on the Math Team in high school (yes, we used to have math tournaments, and I once cost my team the championship by misreading an equation and missing a giveaway solution, but that’s another story…).
I like Sylvian a lot, and this side project is not my favorite, but it’s a fine piece of work. All I can say is that the stereo mix on the record sounds much better than this mono mix, and the studio version is a minute shorter than the live one. The album version has one of those spacious mixes David Bottrill is a master of, and it sounds much funkier than this. That’s Jerry Marotta on drums btw.
This does have a kind of dead seriousness that may be prock, though Fripp averts literal proctology by sitting down when he plays. This is definitely guru rock, and I know many people will reject out of hand a song advocating spiritual evolution. I’m not necessarily an advocate of guru rock, but if it can produce an album as good as Who Came First, I’m going to keep an open mind.
I also think it’s interesting the way Sylvian is both self-absorbed and painfully self-conscious. He’s rather do anything than look at the camera, and all of the mach schau that’s going to happen on that stage took place in the dressing room.
I like what I’m reading, here. Especially this, from saturnismine:
the word “prock” came out of the use of the word Proctomusicology: music up its own ass about its musicological means of creating music. see my comments above.
General Slocum also reminded us of what I believe is Prock’s most important characteristic: its ability to stand as a genre that cuts across all other possible genres. What Prock artists most have in common is the process by which they create their music. Like the General said, it could be argued that Steely Dan, XTC, AND Henry Rollins are all Prock. There’s work ahead, folks, but I feel we’re getting somewhere.
“that song is a fucking nightmare of safe mediocrity.”
Right on, Mr. Ismine. Though I enjoy a lot of Fripp, Crimson, et al, this is one example that should only be kept in an appendix somewhere. Fripp’s affect is so extreme over the decades, he reminds me of one of those Oliver Sacks books, like “The Man Who Mistook His Wife For a Manual Typewriter, a Thesaurus, and a Les Paul Far Beyond the Reach of Any Living Woman.” As such a cartoon, he is beyond illustrative value.
And while we’re here, Mr. Bakshi needs to make some attempt at separating Prock and Kentonism, as Prock still struggles for clarity.
sammy, you chose this video for a discussion of prock. i’m curious to hear why. bring it, bub.
Because I can wrap easily wrap my head around:
music with an obsessive bent, like what we’re seeing here.
But this:
prock ALSO has a mincing, overly informed, neurotic, nearly tragicomic infatuation with worshipping but, heaven forbid, not replicating past musical forms and ideas.
is definitely a sharp turn. I posted this as it is clearly the former, something we can all agree upon, and to determine what else it is and what it isn’t in regards to Prock.
I kept mum today on this prock stuff because a.) I was actually getting soe shit done; and b.) Saturn was *on fire* with his absolutely correct, insightful analyses of what is and isn’t Prock. *There’s* the man who should write the definition!
Is it prock to use two professional cameramen and one drunk cameraman?
David Sylvian looks so different from my conception of him that I hardly realized it was him.
This seems more Kentonite than Prock to me. However, I’d say there are a couple of decidedly Prock things going on:
1. Employing a “legendary,” 40-something guitarist to play about three notes
2. Utilizing a real drummer when a drum machine would not only “do,” but might actually be preferable
Well, the legendary guitarist is co-writer of the song, which is from the Sylvian/Fripp album The First Day. Now employing a Chapman stick player….
I’ve got to run to an all-day meeting, but I’d like to thank sammy for re-opening the discussion on Prock. I’m reminded, however, of how much work we have yet to do. Hopefully I’ll get time to dig in on this tonight.
No, no! Employing a Chapman Stick is a decidedly Kentonite move.
I’d say Fripp’s posture and the “proper” way he holds the guitar are the most Prock aspects.
But seriously, what do you do to this music?
I think the quest for the meaning of Prock has gotten skewed by this concentration on Fripp. It’s really shooting procks in a barrell, isn’t it? What about Steely Dan and those forty takes of guitar solo, and hectoring their performers into bland submission?
Or what about quasi-freedom spokespersons like Henry Rollins, who’s type-A tendencies have him providing tiny simulacra of abandon, until it looks very like the real thing, as in a rotoscope image?
Zappa has been covered before, too, though in his early days he had the smarts or good luck to ctually give his player free reign within a prock framework.
Where does the semi-fictional XTC fit into this?
This is music to wear vests and shirts with poofy cuffs to.
that song is a fucking nightmare of safe mediocrity.
prock music as it’s been conceived here in these hallowed halls, is music with an obsessive bent, like what we’re seeing here.
however, prock ALSO has a mincing, overly informed, neurotic, nearly tragicomic infatuation with worshipping but, heaven forbid, not replicating past musical forms and ideas.
while this ACT may have a relationship to a musical heritage by mere dint of the presence of fripp and a chapman stick, this hardly amounts to a fixation of the type we’ve come to identify in our discussions of prock. the music itself doesn’t really have much in the way of prockishness.
sammy, you chose this video for a discussion of prock. i’m curious to hear why. bring it, bub.
Hvb, if we’re going to make any progress with these definitions, you’re going to have to use words. Explain in what way a Chapman Stick is obviously (to you) Kentonite rather than prock. I think this was my problem with your methodology in the recent Winner/Loser rock symposium. Pointing to something as a great example of a particular principle may seem like a good idea, but I just don’t think it gets us any closer to a definition, especially when the concepts are as slippery as these.
So come on, you’re an articulate guy. If these concepts could be defined by examples, we’d be home by now.
This is music to do algebra homework to. I found the video to be more like lame jazz fusion than anything else.
The video was even more boring than I expected it to be–a really long six minutes.
One element that makes it prock: the moody passages are profoundly uninteresting. And here there wasn’t even much build-up to something more rocking.
Dr. John, thanks for the comparison. I again have to say: which would anybody listen to this shit instead of jazz? Because it rocks? Not in this case.
don’t confuse “prock” with “prog”. the way it’s being used in this thread makes it seem like “prock” means “prog, but only lamer” or something.
the word “prock” came out of the use of the word Proctomusicology: music up its own ass about its musicological means of creating music. see my comments above.
there’s always a potential for “prog” to be “prock”. but “prock” isn’t limited to that genre.
remember hvb’s japanese rocker. he was discussed in terms of “prock”, but has little to do with prog or jazz.
saturn, you’re right on all counts. So then there are good and bad forms of prock?
I’m still not ready, however, to call the video prock. There is a kind of un-self awareness (that is, you feel like yelling, My word, don’t you guys know how idiotic you look!)that seems un-prock.
I appreciate Saturn’s clarification too. And I also don’t see much that’s prock about the song–it’s more the choice of instruments. Taking a weird instrument to play something that didn’t really need those instruments to be played is definitely a prock impulse.
I like this song, but them I was on the Math Team in high school (yes, we used to have math tournaments, and I once cost my team the championship by misreading an equation and missing a giveaway solution, but that’s another story…).
I like Sylvian a lot, and this side project is not my favorite, but it’s a fine piece of work. All I can say is that the stereo mix on the record sounds much better than this mono mix, and the studio version is a minute shorter than the live one. The album version has one of those spacious mixes David Bottrill is a master of, and it sounds much funkier than this. That’s Jerry Marotta on drums btw.
This does have a kind of dead seriousness that may be prock, though Fripp averts literal proctology by sitting down when he plays. This is definitely guru rock, and I know many people will reject out of hand a song advocating spiritual evolution. I’m not necessarily an advocate of guru rock, but if it can produce an album as good as Who Came First, I’m going to keep an open mind.
I also think it’s interesting the way Sylvian is both self-absorbed and painfully self-conscious. He’s rather do anything than look at the camera, and all of the mach schau that’s going to happen on that stage took place in the dressing room.
I like what I’m reading, here. Especially this, from saturnismine:
General Slocum also reminded us of what I believe is Prock’s most important characteristic: its ability to stand as a genre that cuts across all other possible genres. What Prock artists most have in common is the process by which they create their music. Like the General said, it could be argued that Steely Dan, XTC, AND Henry Rollins are all Prock. There’s work ahead, folks, but I feel we’re getting somewhere.
“that song is a fucking nightmare of safe mediocrity.”
Right on, Mr. Ismine. Though I enjoy a lot of Fripp, Crimson, et al, this is one example that should only be kept in an appendix somewhere. Fripp’s affect is so extreme over the decades, he reminds me of one of those Oliver Sacks books, like “The Man Who Mistook His Wife For a Manual Typewriter, a Thesaurus, and a Les Paul Far Beyond the Reach of Any Living Woman.” As such a cartoon, he is beyond illustrative value.
And while we’re here, Mr. Bakshi needs to make some attempt at separating Prock and Kentonism, as Prock still struggles for clarity.
Because I can wrap easily wrap my head around:
But this:
is definitely a sharp turn. I posted this as it is clearly the former, something we can all agree upon, and to determine what else it is and what it isn’t in regards to Prock.
I kept mum today on this prock stuff because a.) I was actually getting soe shit done; and b.) Saturn was *on fire* with his absolutely correct, insightful analyses of what is and isn’t Prock. *There’s* the man who should write the definition!